So, how would you focus this?

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Charles Twist
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Re: So, how would you focus this?

Post by Charles Twist » Fri May 21, 2010 9:14 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I am coming in to this a bit late, but hopefully can contribute a thing or two.
To answer the original question, I would say that you need to decide what matters to you. In front of that scene, I would want the garlic in the foreground sharp, but I would be happy to have them go fuzzy as they disappear in to the yonder: this implies image depth and gives a 3D feel to the pic. I then like the trees and would choose to have some of them in focus. So a tilted plane of focus to include the foreground garlic, the trunks and the first curtain of foliage seems about right. After that, you can play with DoF to control the amount of fuzziness in the woodland context. That's just me and maybe a bit obvious. It's a nice setting so why not be simple and accept Nature for what it is, rather than going all arty? That's a personal choice.
Tim: I like your new webpage - fantastic to show the degradation of the circle of confusion. I knew those web skills would come in handy one day :wink: . I think the main problem with it is practical use. I prepared a few years ago the following graph, but have frankly found little use for it, as I have been too busy trying to nail the damned picture before the proverbial tortoise hared off (and yes, Emmanuel, I did laminate it before packing it to protect it from our fickle weather):
Image
It shows the circle of confusion at various apertures, based on the variation there is in the bellows extension. Each curve is for a different extension difference. By "extension difference", I mean: you focus at one point & measure the bellows extension; then change the focus for another point in your field of view & measure the new bellows extension - you then calculate the difference between the two extensions. Those are the values in blue. You then decide what CoC you would like and then read the aperture you should dial. I believe this works whatever the angle of the plane of focus. And translates fairly readily to the real world. Sort of, as you will see later...
So, quite naturally, you see in the graph that when you need more bellows movement to have two objects in focus, you need a smaller aperture to get the same circle of confusion. The red line shows the minimum f/number. Emmanuel, focal length does not come in to the equations directly, since we are talking about differences in bellows extension which will, however, increase with focal length for a given difference in the object distance - according to the thin lens rule. So a longer lens will need a smaller aperture to achieve the same depth of field. But I don't see why the film format - 35mm or LF - would alter the DoF. After all, 35mm is only selecting a smaller part of the image, isn't it? Let's say, that 35mm is 10x smaller than 5x4: a factor of 10 is about 3.3 stops. So that takes you from F/11.3 to f/4, which is a lot lower than Emmanuel suggests :?: . Might have misunderstood you here, but I now suspect that the optimal f/stop is independent of the format...
One thing which is interesting here is the range of the optimal lens stops, which runs from f/16 to f/45. I seem to recall that Kerry Thalmann measured the optimal apertures of various lenses and came up with smaller values - typically around f/11, which tallies with a very small bellows extension difference in the above graph. So the lenses blur well before we use them in practice. I can't find the exact reference, but this page is a start. I think this leads us from optical sharpness to perceived (or artistic?) sharpness, where the increased DoF makes us think that the pic is better resolved. I hope this helps.
Regards,
Charles

Emmanuel Bigler
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Re: So, how would you focus this?

Post by Emmanuel Bigler » Sat May 22, 2010 9:04 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Charles Twist wrote:So that takes you from F/11.3 to f/4, which is a lot lower than Emmanuel suggests :?: . Might have misunderstood you here, but I now suspect that the optimal f/stop is independent of the format...
Charles, your calculations are certainly right, I was speaking about a "theoretical" comparison between a large format camera fitted with large format "film" lenses and a digital view camera fitted with new optimised lenses designed for a 4.5x6 cm silicon sensor.
This is a real-life problem of professional photographers who have stopped using large format cameras with film and now work with medium format silicon sensors. And who wish to apply tilts in order to extend their DOF limits in object space like they used to do in the good old days.

Both classes of lenses are optimised differentely, new "digital" (and tremendously expensive) view camera lenses are optimised for much saller image circles and their best f-stops are smaller, f/8, not f/22 like in the 5x4" format.
The gedankenexperiment consists in trying to print a final image to the same size & top-class quality with both systems, and apply the same sharpness criteria to both prints in fine.
It happens that if you consider standard view camera lenses of the 6/4 design covering 70-75° for all formats, their best f-stop scales with their focal length according to the simple approximate scaling law
best f-stop N = (focal length in mm)/(8 mm) for the older designs
and probably (focal lengths in mm)/(11 mm) for the most recent designs and "digital" lenses.

This empiric rule can be estimated by plotting the various recommended apertures for different lenses of similar design. It happens that the best f-stop scales exactly in proportion of the focal length and the format. Same design but optimised for different formats including small silicon sensors.
Therefore, if you insist on using the best f-stop for boths images the large format one and the silicon one, if you scale your circle of confusion according to the sensor/film format, you do not change your hyperfocal distance ! ( H = f*f/(N*c) ; if N and c scale like f, H is unchanged)
Hence DOF is unchanged whatever the format might be, if you use the best f-stop and scale the circle of confusion in proportion of the format.
Eventually the tilt angles scale down in the same proportions, hence in order to achieve the same DOF wedge as LF users do, in the conditiosn of our gedankenexperiment with a digital view camera and a small sensor, your tilt angles are minuscule and potentially non manageable.

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dave_whatever wrote:I think on most smaller format tilt lenses the tilt movement is geared in some way
Yes, exactly, and I was thinking of tilt and shift lenses designed for 35mm SLR cameras, which are now used by former LF photographers who wish to apply movements to their D-SLR..

Recently, Canon has introduced an improbable 17 mm tilt & shift lens, and even if the tilting mechanism is geared and precise, I doubt that you can apply more than 0.5 degree in real life...

Closer to our film view cameras, various manufacturers have either introduced new geared monorail cameras, or made ugrades to their existing products, so that tilt angles can be precisely applied ; but this does not solve another problem, the amount of mechanical travel required to bring focus from infinity to, say, one metre in front of the camera.
WIth a focal length of 23 mm, and such lenses exist in the "digital" view camera lens product offer, the amount of travel is only 0.5 mm... even geared, the classical focusing mechanism of LF camera is not precise enough, you need an helical.

Well, as far as I am concerned, if you add to the extravagant price of digital medium format silicon sensors, the price of new digital view camera lenses, no need to say how happy I am with a classical large format film camera, classical lenses, and classical film for my classical darkroom !

However, since I have a passion for gedankenexperiments, Tim's simulation programme provides perfect scientific argument to support the idea that I'll never use any kind of digital imaging system !
Imagine a photographic world without a good Scheimplug applied manually and without a visual check on a large ground glass ! :wink:

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Re: So, how would you focus this?

Post by Joanna Carter » Sat May 22, 2010 9:41 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Emmanuel Bigler wrote:gedankenexperiment
I just had to find out the definition of this word, and the nearest I could get was "thought experiment". However, in my research, I came across this page, which sounds a lot more likely :roll:
Reassure yourself - stroke an Ebony

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Re: So, how would you focus this?

Post by Patrick Dixon » Sat May 22, 2010 4:04 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

So here's one of the e6s. I'm actually quite pleased with this one.

I think the problem with the blue e6s was due to cross-contamination of the chemicals. Even though I thoroughly wash everything in between, I won't be using the same measuring vessel for all of the chemicals from now on. I think I'm going to have to buy a load more jugs.

Image

e100vs, angulon 90mm/f6.8, 8secs @f22 1/2

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