Is this industry really worth it?

[Julian Elliott]

Afternoon all

So, is it really worth it trying to make money from our cameras?

Right now, I'm feeling that I am working my nuts off for nothing. A couple of years ago when I loved over here to France I decided that it was now or never to try and make a go of it.

Now, granted I haven't done too badly in the publication stakes. I've been published around once or twice every month for the last 18 months somewhere or other. My images are slowly starting to sell and there is a mag in the UK that makes use of me when budgets dictate due to my location here in France.

But I just don't seem to be getting the work that others do. And I'm increasingly getting the feeling that this business is very clicky.

Life seems very frustrating right now.

Any ideas?

[timparkin]

Afternoon all

So, is it really worth it trying to make money from our cameras?

Right now, I'm feeling that I am working my nuts off for nothing. A couple of years ago when I loved over here to France I decided that it was now or never to try and make a go of it.

Now, granted I haven't done too badly in the publication stakes. I've been published around once or twice every month for the last 18 months somewhere or other. My images are slowly starting to sell and there is a mag in the UK that makes use of me when budgets dictate due to my location here in France.

But I just don't seem to be getting the work that others do. And I'm increasingly getting the feeling that this business is very clicky.

Life seems very frustrating right now.

Any ideas?

What were you doing as a job before? In my experience there aren't many full pro's out there - many are just supplementing an income from something else.

Tim

[Julian Elliott]

I was just an office worker. Got fed up of the constant backbiting etc that went on.

Have also had a few let downs this year by two tour companies. One of them REALLY annoyed me as I was asked to put something together for it then to be shelved. I spent money researching things on the ground with no payback.

Would like to be making more money from:

1) The libraries that I'm with (Getty - not the Flickr one but a normal RM contract; Alamy; Robert Harding; Arcaid). At the moment it's just a trickle and not much at that.
2) Would love to get more people out on workshops over here. France is very under-exploited with some fantastic scenery. When I'm out in some of the gorgeous areas I never see another photographer unlike if you were to go to somewhere such as the Jurassic coast. Problem is though how in the heck do you attract people? Tried the advertising route and it came to nothing.

The only commissioned work that I have right now is from my local town hall. According to my wife's friend, for a French town hall to employ an English photographer is very rare!!!

[Charles Twist]

The fabled silver bullet!
I live in the North-East (Cleveland Coast) where there are a LOT of photographers - some famous ones and some good ones. I don't know that any are doing that well, although a couple have been selling prints and cards to local outlets in sufficient numbers to call it an income. Then, there are a whole pile who don't make any money worth speaking of. The feedback I hear is that everyone around here has lost between 30% and 80% of their income from prints of landscape pictures between early 2011 and early 2012. Landscape prints fatigue, lack of money, everyone has a camera and can do it themselves are the typical causes given.
Those with an income have invested in a LOT of prints and cards, and have a LOT of outlets. Takes time, capital and courage. Not sure that market exists in France - maybe with the expats and tourists?
Now a lot of landscape togs are offering portraiture and venturing in to weddings or commercial photography. But everybody who needs a photographer already has one or two lined up. Very hard to break in, especially without a portfolio.
There is also the art route, but pretty pictures are not in.
I have been told that the UK produces more photography undergraduates than there are jobs in Europe!
It's about contacts and bold, new ideas that people are interested in - Tim's mag is a case in point.
Good luck!
Charles

[David B]

I think Charles has pretty much nailed it...Lots of people interested in photography (when I first started photography in Northumberland over 15 years ago - as a hobbyist - you rarely saw another photographer...these days you see plenty), digital cameras which for not much capital investment produce superb images with little technical requirements or mucking about (compared to say film in 35mm SLRs), and the fact that many amateurs are prepared to give away good work either for free or for very little payment.

Given that most photographers all want to do the same thing ('Wow' shots at dawn/dusk with bold compositions and contrasty saturated colours), I think to have any chance of breaking out of that mould you'd need to do something very different that isn't the first thing that appeals to everyone who decides they want to do it...

It's much more about the marketing than the product in my view.

[Trail Images]

Jools, I think the previous comments go a long way to bringing out some of the high points with regard to much of the drop off in work being sold or the number of folks actually turning a decent income from it. Additionally, one has got to either be diverse and do many things in the field, or have a specialty no one else has brought to the surface yet. The multitude of shooters with the advent of digital from when I first got serious with my work to now is unmatched. Slowly the market has become saturated with work that can be either bought cheap or duplicated very easily.
In the states the economy downturn was yet another BIG factor. As I've said from the beginning of the downturn with the lack of sales back then to now is a reality check. Sadly, folks down on their luck will never buy a nice print to hang on the inside of their car where they maybe presently residing. However, they may buy a really cheap print just to block out the windows so they can have a bit of privacy.

[Julian Elliott]

Thanks all.

Well, I've had a bit of an odd couple of days.

Just after I wrote my original post, I had a phone call from a bloke here in Tours. He was asking how I was getting on as a photographer as he was one too. He does advertising stuff but seems to be getting no work around here. Join the club came to mind.

Then yesterday morning I received my first bumper Getty statement. I could not believe it when I opened it. Instead of the usual pittance I had a decent 400€ coming my way! Just a shame that I don't get the full whack as my sales before Getty took their slice was over $1000!!!

Just hoping that isn't a blip and that things continue that way.

[Charles Twist]

France is a land of opportunity, IMHO. I don't think the togs are as aggressively pursuing the lolly as over in the UK. I guess most people there want to do photography properly with painstaking care. What we have learned, is that quantity trumps quality. For a while.
Only snag is that France is a very structured business environment. So you have to know how to get your prints & cards distributed.
For workshops, you need notoriety. The UK public is inured to the sales pitch, so be inventive. Participate in the right forums. Proffer advice. Appear knowledgeable. Offer something that is desirable for them. Getting the message out is v. diff because there are so many other messages. So think how you can stand out. Also: You have got the ear of the local council and maybe the local tourist board: use them as a mouthpiece. Just don't tick off any local farmers or head figures.
Best regards,
Charles

[dennis]

Now more or less retired I began freelancing (moonlighting) in the 1950s. Did front of house pics for a couple of semi-pro theatres in London & sold articles on theatre photography to photo mags. Discovered that adding words helped a great deal - lots of photographers, but not a lot who could add some sensible words. Was using a Rollei T & pre-war Leica. Began teaching & did work for Practical Woodworking & other mags. It helped that I was also designing & selling small boat plans too. Apart from assisting a local photographer on the odd Saturday I avoided weddings, & then selling directly to people at all since it was such a hassle getting the money from them, at least magazines generally pay up eventually. I reached the stage where editors would ring to see if I had anything they could use. Did some camera reviews for BJP after winning a competition; I have often wondered how many entries they had . . . Supplied stock pics to an agency I approached & was then asked to contribute to another via a mag article - a book was commissioned in the same way - it pays to publish! These days I think, as others have said that it is all too easy - everyone is a photographer so commercially you have to be both very good & original; not easy money. Dennis.

[Julian Elliott]

France is a land of opportunity, IMHO. I don't think the togs are as aggressively pursuing the lolly as over in the UK. I guess most people there want to do photography properly with painstaking care. What we have learned, is that quantity trumps quality. For a while.
Only snag is that France is a very structured business environment. So you have to know how to get your prints & cards distributed.
For workshops, you need notoriety. The UK public is inured to the sales pitch, so be inventive. Participate in the right forums. Proffer advice. Appear knowledgeable. Offer something that is desirable for them. Getting the message out is v. diff because there are so many other messages. So think how you can stand out. Also: You have got the ear of the local council and maybe the local tourist board: use them as a mouthpiece. Just don't tick off any local farmers or head figures.
Best regards,
Charles

You're right Charles. France is a land of opportunity. There are many un-exploited photogenic places over here. However, it can be a pain in the backside in some areas as there are certain things that the libraries are getting very cautious of. Paris is the standout example. Beautiful city but full of places that like to charge huge wads of cash for the priviledge of getting the permission to photograph there. Shame really as yesterday I was in Bordeaux and for the price of a bottle of wine I got some nice shots of a shop

The quantity vs. quality is unfortunately a pain. You're face with a trade off of producing outstanding work but just sending that off or producing loads of it to fill up your quoto for the library. I'm not with Corbis but if you try and join one of the questions they ask is "how many pictures will you be submitting each month". The other day someone was moaning in the Getty forum about falling sales. The response was "how many pictures do they have and how often are they submitting".

Feeding libraries is like feeding a constant fire but if we want to sell then we have to produce. Personally, i don't mind that part but what frustrates me is having to spend hours going through everything and cleaning the image if necessary. With all the money spent on developing cameras it's a shame they don't develop a way to avoid this but that's another battle.

Tried the tourist boards last year but to no avail. I'm going to try again as I've been here longer and also have published work by the town hall with more to come.

The one project I'm hoping to get is the work for the upcoming tram system. Apparently, my contact has put my name forward, which is great