Fixed focus camera?

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Steve Smith
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Re: Fixed focus camera?

Post by Steve Smith » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:21 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Dave Dawson wrote:by my calculations the distance from the film plane to the back of the lens board is about 97mm for a S.A. 90mm f8 lens at infinity........Would you go along with that?
Have a look here: http://www.ebonycamera.com/articles/lenses.html

Data for a load of lenses. The last figure is the film plane to back of the lens distance. It''s 98.8mm for a 90mm f8 Super Angulon. The distance from the film plane to the back of the lens board should be this figure minus the lens board thickness.


Steve.

dave_whatever
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Re: Fixed focus camera?

Post by dave_whatever » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:48 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

There's also a good resource specifically for old Schneider lenses (almost all non-current models) here, a more complete list of their lenses than the ebony site.

Steve Smith
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Re: Fixed focus camera?

Post by Steve Smith » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:03 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Thanks. That is a better collection of data. Interestingly, the recommended image area for the 65mm S A is 65mm x 90 but it gets used on 5" x 4".


Steve.

Dave Dawson
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Re: Fixed focus camera?

Post by Dave Dawson » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:20 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Steve Smith wrote:
Dave Dawson wrote:by my calculations the distance from the film plane to the back of the lens board is about 97mm for a S.A. 90mm f8 lens at infinity........Would you go along with that?
Have a look here: http://www.ebonycamera.com/articles/lenses.html

Data for a load of lenses. The last figure is the film plane to back of the lens distance. It''s 98.8mm for a 90mm f8 Super Angulon. The distance from the film plane to the back of the lens board should be this figure minus the lens board thickness.


Steve.
I would think a Sinar lens panel is about 1.8mm thick :)

Cheers Dave

Alan Clark
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Re: Fixed focus camera?

Post by Alan Clark » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:27 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Dave,
My box camera measures exactly 100mm from the film plane to the back of the lens board, but is not focussed on infinity, as I explained earlier. So I would think your infinity measurement of 97mm is not far out. In the light of Steve's post it would be worth checking again.
The distance from the film plane to the touching face of my Toyo film holders is 4.5mm. This is easily measured by putting a sheet of film in the holder,placing a straight edge across the sides of the holder, and rolling drill bits across the film. A 4.5mm drill just goes under with my Toyo's, but my Fidelity holder almost takes a 5mm drill. A big difference, so it's worth checking yours.

The important distance when you make the box is the one from the rear edge of the lens board to the interface of film holder and back. If you intend using felt on the front, or back, or both. then you need to get some and measure it's thickness, and allow for this.

Whether you go for infinity or hyperfocal focus is your choice. I chose hyperfocal because I usually like strong foreground interest in my landscapes and want the maximum D.O.F.

My camera is a joy to use because I know that whatever I point it at, if it is more than just a few feet away it will be in focus. This leaves me free to select and compose without thinking about focus.

I considered Steve's idea for helical focussing when I designed my camera, but in the end went for the ultra simple approach, and haven't regretted it.

Having problems posting pictures, but Joanna is helping!

Alan Clark
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Emmanuel Bigler
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Re: Fixed focus camera?

Post by Emmanuel Bigler » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:03 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

...I'm thinking of building a 5x4 fixed focus camera with a spare 90mm...

Hello from France !
On our French MF/LF web site galerie-photo there is an article by Gilles Barbier about a 13x18 fixed-focus camera. He wanted to get circular images up to the very edge of the illuminated image circle of the good old angulon-not-super he had handy. But you can put whatever ground glass you wish in front of your 90 mm lens !

The text of the article is in French but you can have a look at the pictures.

http://www.galerie-photo.com/barbier-hybis-90.html

Gilles B. had asked me about the proper setting for the fixed-focus position. I indicated him what was, in theory, the proper offset to apply to the film plane with respect to the focus plane in order to be sharp on the hyperfocal distance. I agree that you'd better get the sharpest image you can get on your ground glass of a distant object i.e. no offser at all with respect to the actual focal point.
But it is good to know the magnitude of this offset, at least in order to know the precision required for this setting.
And since we are here on the UKLF group, I cannot but quote Sir Isaac Newton himself who provided us with the proper formula :

(offset with respect to the focal point) = (focal length)^2 / (object distance)

If you go for a 4x5" camera and demand a conventional circle of least confusion of about 90 microns, the hyperfocal distance for a 90mm lens @f/32 is 2.8 metre, about 9 feet.
Formula for the hyperfocal distance H :
H = f^2/(N . c)
where : f = focal length, N = f/number (e.g. : 22, 32..) c = diameter of the circle of least confusion.

The corresponding offset w/respect to the focal point, for seeing sharp at 2.8 metre with a 90 mm lens is (90x90)/(0.09) ~= 2.9 mm

In his camera, G. Barbier intended to use the full 13x18 (7x5") format hence he chose something less stringent for the circle of least confusion, namely a diameter of 150 microns.
@f/22, the hyperfocal in those conditions is 2.4 metre, the corresponding offset is 3.3mm.

So the conclusion is simple, if you intend to use your fix-focus camera at f/22 of f/32, with a circle of least confusion between 90 (for f/32) and 150 microns (for f/22) you have about 3 mm of tolerance to set the proper position of your your ground glass.

offset = 0 : everything is acceptably sharp between beyond infinity (this is actually very, very far ;) ) and 2.5 metre, the hyperfocal distance

offset = about 3 mm : everything is acceptably sharp between infinity (this is already quite far, in indeed) and 2.5/2 = about 1.2 metre, 4 feet

There is a latin proverb : in medio stat virtus so you can go for about one millimeter of offset and be happy !
And the conclusion is that there is no need of a swiss precision machine-tool to properly setup your ground glass provided that your camera allows some adjustable translation of the lens with repect to the ground glass !
Open the lens to its wider aperture, move the lens until a distant object makes a sharp image. This gives you the focal pont.
Then try with by spacing by one or two additional millimeters... by looking at a target located at 2 to 5 metres of distance. And see what happens on the ground glass.

With very old lenses thare is a possible "best focus shift" between the image obtained wide open and the actual image when the lens is stopped downn to f/22 or f/32. My feeling is this effect is very small with a super-angulon which is a modern lens.

Have fun !

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Re: Fixed focus camera?

Post by Joanna Carter » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:13 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Dave Dawson wrote:Joanna, It's been a VERY long time sinse a woman asked for MY phone number :shock:
Ok Dave, just to make your day, you can PM me yours as well :wink: :roll:
Reassure yourself - stroke an Ebony

Joanna Carter
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Re: Fixed focus camera?

Post by Joanna Carter » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:16 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Emmanuel Bigler wrote:... the hyperfocal distance for a 90mm lens @f/32 is 2.8 metre, about 9 feet.
About 9 feet? About? I thought you were a scientist Emmanuel :roll: :lol:
Reassure yourself - stroke an Ebony

Dave Dawson
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Re: Fixed focus camera?

Post by Dave Dawson » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:59 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

With my woodworking skills....It will focus where it focuses!

Cheers Dave

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Re: Fixed focus camera?

Post by dave_whatever » Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:30 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Steve Smith wrote:Thanks. That is a better collection of data. Interestingly, the recommended image area for the 65mm S A is 65mm x 90 but it gets used on 5" x 4".


Steve.
I think thats more a recommendation of the biggest format that you still get a useful degree of movements on, rather than anything else.

Emmanuel Bigler
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Re: Fixed focus camera?

Post by Emmanuel Bigler » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:02 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

About 9 feet? About? I thought you were a scientist Emmanuel
Eh : Joanna ! Don't forget that my continental feet are slightly bigger than yours ! ;) (my size according to the French shoe size system is : 46)

With my woodworking skills....It will focus where it focuses!
The idea is that nothing has to be very precise in the woodworking itself as long as you have something sliding for a minor adjustment of focus.
You can mount your lens on a short section of a plastic tube sliding inside a hole drilled in a wooden box. Use a generous diameter to avoid any vignetting and keep the tube section short.
Focus at best and (preferably : reversibly) block the tube by whatever means you can imagine, screws, clamping collars... eventually some black gaffer tape will help the device to be light-tight (but not very aesthetic, though..)! Glueing is an option but then the focus setting is permanent.

My brother-in-law has started a wooden 4x5" camera project and he has designed a system based on a rectangular box sliding inside another box in order to keep the focusing capabilities.
But this is more difficult, a rectangle sliding inside a rectangle, than having a tube sliding into a hole drilled inside the wooden front of a box.
With an electric drill and a good drill stand, with the suitable tool (in French "scie-cloche", hole-saw) you can bore a big hole which will be very perpendicular to the back of the camera. This is not really very important in a world where everybody swears only by tilts everywhere ;) , but for a simple infinity-focus image, any unwanted tilt generate some unpleasant blur...

Dave Dawson
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Re: Fixed focus camera?

Post by Dave Dawson » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:09 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

What 'bottle' would you put on my pending master piece of a fixed focus camera? Bearing in mind there will be no shifts or rising front, would you put a 90mm f8 Super Angulon or a 90mm f6.8 Angulon?

Cheers Dave

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Re: Fixed focus camera?

Post by jb7 » Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:50 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Good job on the 6x12 roll film holder Steve-
I can only dream of using CNC...

Here's another 65mm in an Olympus 50mm helical- in American black walnut-

Image

Having fitted it, I can't imagine using fixed focus-
this helical has about 6.5mm of travel, which allows focusing down to around 65cm.
I don't do many pictures at infinity,
but with a lens this wide, some foreground is inevitable anyway-

One thing that might be useful to you, when the lens is racked out in this mount there will be some mechanical vignetting from it unless you file some of it away for the image corners-

Whatever way you choose to mount your lens, be careful with parallelism...

The 65mm will cover 4x5 without a problem-
though my camera is 4x5, so care was taken to centre the lens on the film area...
Using a 6x12 back will allow a bit more freedom-

There are some more pictures here,
including some of the mount cutaways-
although I had to file away more than is shown in the pictures-


http://photographyireland.net/viewtopic ... c&start=45


Good luck with the rest of the project-


joseph
bracketing is for wimps

dave_whatever
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Re: Fixed focus camera?

Post by dave_whatever » Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:49 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I've got to say thats a badass looking DIY camera there, nice work.

Steve Smith
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Re: Fixed focus camera?

Post by Steve Smith » Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:03 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

jb7 wrote:Here's another 65mm in an Olympus 50mm helical- in American black walnut

That does look good. Did you take any pictures during construction? I would love to see the inside of the wooden parts. ****

It looks as if you have modified the same Olympus lens as I have. I started out with a Minolta lens and needed to have the inner helical machined out to clear the rear element. When I found the Olympus lens and meausred the inner helical bore I did a little dance of joy when I found out it was just slightly bigger than the 42.5mm (ish) diameter of the rear element assembly. I don't think it will vignette in my camera but the rear of the plate which the Olympus lens is mounted to needs to be thinned out as much as possible.

I have some nice 3/8" thick oak which is going to become the body of my camera. Thanks to the CNC it will have perfectly cut finger joints!

*** EDIT: I should have read this bit:
jb7 wrote:There are some more pictures here

Steve.

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