Arca Swiss F Line (171) vs Ebony SV45Te

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Dave Tolcher

Arca Swiss F Line (171) vs Ebony SV45Te

Post by Dave Tolcher » Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:25 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I recently purchased an Arca Swiss F Line camera with a view to laying to rest an uncertainty whether this was the camera for me rather than the Ebony SV45Te. Having been with Ebony cameras for nearly 10 years graduating from an RSW (briefly also an RW45) through 45S to the SV45Te I have both struggled and enjoyed the change of camera system with its impact on a well established workflow. Most of my comments may equally apply to other wood based cameras from Ebony, Wista, Shen Hao etc.

The SV45Te is an incredibly versatile folding camera comfortably adapting to lenses ranging from 80mm up to 450mm with no change in bellows or configuration. I bought new in 2007 with universal bellows and soon changed to the Maxwell HiLux screen which has been excellent. I like the quick set-up time and the dual mirrored levels which make setting the camera up flat and level a doddle. I have a long arca plate (designed for a 600mm tele lens foot) attached via both tripod holes which gives good balance vs only single point attachment. What prompted me to explore the metal side has been the lack of precision in movements (rear tilt particularly) and the need to undo/tighten multiple knobs for tilt. Even when clamped down the camera is not really really solid (although I have never had camera shake).

The 2 alternatives I was most of were the Arca F Line and the Linhof TK45. I photograph regularly with Jon Brock who has a TK45 and although he produces excellent results the camera doesnt 'talk' to me whereas the Arca has always held a very strong almost hypnotic appeal. The TK would make an equally good picture taking machine.

In September 2009 I purchased a s/h F Line outfit to finally make a comparison and to decide which limitations I most want to live with and what view camera will be pryed from my cold or arthritic hands whichever comes first !

The Arca kit was well thought out and very flexible (for which I can take no credit). It is based around a pair of 171mm standards (one with micrometric orbix) with standard back and choice of lens panels and an Arca to Linhof adapter. The back has the standard Arca screen with fresnel. 3 bellows were provided with the std pleated bellows, a leather loose pleated bellows and true bag bellows. Pleated comfortably handles 300m and 400mm T lenses, leather will just handle these with focus to about 10ft. Rails (optical benches) are 2 15cm and a 30cm rail. The base extension brackets are 30cm with 2 locks and the short bench with one lock. The 30cm bracket with 2 15cm rail is most flexible as you can extend the standards out beyond 15+15 to comfortably focus 45cm. The bracket fits directly into an Arca style quick release system. There are 2 standards which are the non metric variety ( ie not geared). The config I carry around is the 2 15cm rails and the 30cm bracket with both stds collapsed onto one 15cm rail and the optical bench and second rail kept locked together. A single 15cm rail isnt long enough to focus the 110mm XL so a lightweight solution with a 15cm rail, the short bracket and 110mm lens is not an option as I had hoped.

For the record, new Arca kits come with 141mm standards or with a 141mm / 110mm combi in the Field variant leading to slightly less weight.The newer Arca kits come with either a telescopic 30cm rail or a collapsible 30cm rail (2 joined - hinged if you like) and the short bracket.

Comparisons:

1) The arca kit weighs approx 1.3kg more than the Ebony. In absolute terms the Ebony comes in at 3.2kg bagged with plate and the Arca at 4.5kg. The ebony feels much smaller and lighter with a very petite transportable footprint by comparison. The ebony is better protected. With 171mm frames the Arca looks and feels big.
2) Set-up time is about the same except for levelling the camera which is a PITA for the arca. Holding the rail is good for front to back level but not for side to side and vice versa for the stds. You have to move eye position between the two level positions and cant see both together so it can be a bit of an iterative process to get right. I should add that I use a ball head so this wouldnt apply with a geared(405 or 410) or P & T head but you cant buy a geared tripod head with an arca fit.....
3) Bellows solution isnt as flexible on the Arca - one size doesnt fit all, you really need to change bellows for the 300mm lens and for c/f with the 200mm lens. However no jiggery pokery is needed with the 80mm lens unlike the Ebony. I can use a 450mm non tele with the Ebony, without extra bellows I cant with the Arca hence the recent purchase of a Fujinon 400T.
4) Screen isnt as good as the Maxwell and I find gradding harder. A Maxwell screen can be purchased but isnt a DIY fit apparantly. Jury out at the moment on this point.
5) Focus is on the left hand with the Arca and the right with the Ebony. I am right handed and after years of conditioning instinctively pick up the the loupe with the left hand so I can focus with the right. I will crack this soon..... The micrometric orbix is on the right (as are the tilt levers) and the focus on the left which means that genuine 2 hand synchronous focus and tilt is possible - this is really really nice. As an update I have been told rightly that this can (and should be) be reversed and it maybe my camera that is set-up back to front.
6) Tilt is a one hand operation on the arca - undo the lever and you have a beautifully smooth weighted base tilt. Using the orbix is a dream, lovely geared movement that is very easy. One of my main issues with the Ebony has been the 2 hands needed to unlock the tilt which is prone to movement until it is locked. Its small but quite a key usability difference especially when trying to hold a loupe under a darkcloth - a third hand is needed with the Ebony.
7) The arca is flexible... to upgrade to 10x8 I could buy a new rear frame and bellows and that would be it. Untested as yet !

Either is a fantastic solution and is photographer limited rather than camera limited. For a 1 box solution the Ebony probably cant be beaten for flexibility and portability. And then there is the smell of the leather on the Ebony :-) The dual level mirror arrangement for levelling the camera on the Ebony is almost a deal breaker as it is so easy and so convenient to get the camera into the base position.

I can only afford to keep one unfortunately so a decision will have to be made but I dont know how I am going to make it.......

I'll post some piccies soon which may make some of this easier to understand if you are unfamiliar with either system.
Last edited by Dave Tolcher on Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:32 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Arca Swiss F Line (171) vs Ebony comparison

Post by timparkin » Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:58 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Firstly - thanks must be given to a really informative article. It was most enlightening.. I have a couple of comments..
davejt3 wrote: 6) Tilt is a one hand operation on the arca - undo the lever and you have a beautifully smooth weighted base tilt. Using the orbix is a dream, lovely geared movement that is very easy. One of my main issues with the Ebony has been the 2 hands needed to unlock the tilt which is prone to movement until it is locked. Its small but quite a key usability difference especially when trying to hold a loupe under a darkcloth - a third hand is needed with the Ebony.
Personally I tend to release the right hand tilt lock (tension) completely and then hold the loupe in my left hand whilst tilting with my right. When I've acheived focus, I lock the left hand tilt. When I know I'm happy I then put the final lock on the right hand tilt.

If I'm trying to get a complex focus where the assymetric tilt doesn't work, I take the left hand tilt lock off completely and then focus with my right hand and tilt with my left. Once I've got the right position, I lock the right hand side with my right hand (after taking it off the focus knob) and then lock the focus.

This hasn't been a problem but it would be really nice to be able to adjust focus and tilt without having to lock!! An arca cube and an F line would be perfect (although very heavy)

davejt3 wrote: 7) The arca is flexible... to upgrade to 10x8 I could buy a new rear frame and bellows and that would be it. Untested as yet !
This is one of the really attractive things about the Arca - I'd love to play with 8x10!
davejt3 wrote: I can only afford to keep one unfortunately so a decision will have to be made but I dont know how I am going to make it.......
Hmm... really tough decision.. If I were you I'd sell both and buy a Mahogany 45S or a RSW45ii (the latter being 1.5kg and the former 1.75kg). If I only had one camera I might have to go or the 45S version for flexibility. I think I'll try to get hold of a SW45ii though as 1.5kg compared with the 45SU 2.6kg is quite a difference!!

Although in a perfect world I'd have a TK45, AS F line, 45SU and an SW45ii :-) (oh! and a Ritter 10x8 and 7x17!!)

Thanks again!!

Tim
Waiting for the developing bill - 2 hours (and it's so small now!)

Dave Tolcher

Re: Arca Swiss F Line (171) vs Ebony comparison

Post by Dave Tolcher » Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:32 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Some comments added in italics post feedback.

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Re: Arca Swiss F Line (171) vs Ebony SV45Te

Post by mpirie » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:06 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Thanks Dave, I'd like to echo Tim's comments on the thoroughness of your review.

I think we were both in a similar "acquisition" mode a few months back, I was trying to get an SV45TE to compliment my TK45.

Last weekend I had the opportunity with 2 clear frosty days to do a back to back comparison of my TK45 and my 45TE.

First up was the Ebony. It's such a tactile piece of equipment that it is a joy to use. I like the ease of setup. Placing it on a 410 with it's own plate, then unfolding it takes mere seconds. The focussing screen could be improved, especially when using wides with f8. I'm sure a Maxwell, Beattie or Boss would improve things. What I don't like is the right hand focussing and left hand lock/drag screws. On my camera, using the left screw to drag means that the focussing movement either tightens or loosens the screw. Maybe it needs adjustment because the shaft seems to move from side to side? I have the "standard" bellows, so working with anything wider than 90 is not easy, especially if you want some movements. Again, universal bellows would improve things. You really do need a third hand to hold the loupe while the right focusses and the left drags/locks.

The TK45 takes a bit of a knack to mount and setup. Certainly longer than the Ebony. But once it's setup, I find the smoothness of the movements means that you don't need to worry about the locks or drag. I think the 45s would be a big improvement having the detents for centre positions rather than having to look at the front standard to make sure everything is zeroed. I have bag and standard bellows for the Linhof as well as a Boss screen for it. The bag bellows means I can get down to my 65 without problems.

It may be my technique, but i find the TK easier to apply front tilt to. This may be down the screen on the Ebony.

If you're a tactile photographer who enjoys the feel of the camera as well as it's looks, then the Ebony has it. On the other hand, if you like the flexibility and quality of German engineering and see it as a tool to produce images, the it's the TK, at least for me.

The Arca Swiss may be even better, but let's not go down that route....my wife has had enough of my GAS for the foreseeable future.

Mike

Dave Tolcher

Re: Arca Swiss F Line (171) vs Ebony SV45Te

Post by Dave Tolcher » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:28 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

My experience suggests all Ebony's suffer from the tightening of the locking nuts on the LHS in use. The 45S and SV45Te have both had that 'feature' and it can catch you unawares, I cant remember for earlier versions.

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Re: Arca Swiss F Line (171) vs Ebony SV45Te

Post by timparkin » Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:03 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

davejt3 wrote:My experience suggests all Ebony's suffer from the tightening of the locking nuts on the LHS in use. The 45S and SV45Te have both had that 'feature' and it can catch you unawares, I cant remember for earlier versions.
Yep ... I just spin mine completely open so it never happens.. I also have the standards quite tight so focus doesn't really shift even when locking down.

Annoying though..

Tim
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Re: Arca Swiss F Line (171) vs Ebony SV45Te

Post by mpirie » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:54 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

timparkin wrote: Yep ... I just spin mine completely open so it never happens.. I also have the standards quite tight so focus doesn't really shift even when locking down.

Annoying though..

Tim
Hi Tim,

My focussing seems too "free" when i back off the left hand locking screws. Is there a way of restricting this freedom?

You mentioned having the standards tight, but it's my focussing rails that need additional drag, no?

I'd love to keep the SV, but if someone told me to grab a camera without hesitation, right now i'd grab the TK.

Mike

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Re: Arca Swiss F Line (171) vs Ebony SV45Te

Post by timparkin » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:58 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

mpirie wrote:
timparkin wrote: Yep ... I just spin mine completely open so it never happens.. I also have the standards quite tight so focus doesn't really shift even when locking down.

Annoying though..

Tim
Hi Tim,

My focussing seems too "free" when i back off the left hand locking screws. Is there a way of restricting this freedom?

You mentioned having the standards tight, but it's my focussing rails that need additional drag, no?

I'd love to keep the SV, but if someone told me to grab a camera without hesitation, right now i'd grab the TK.

Mike
Sorry - it's the focussing rails I meant. You tighten up the philips screws at the top of the metal plates. Carry a screwdriver around with you though as when damp, the wood expands and can lock up the rails; loosen the screws off before this happens (if it does happen, it isn't anything to worry about. As the wood dries it will contract and you'll be back to normal). I like to have quite tight focussing rails hence the focus staying where it is when you let go (even with the camera pointed almost stright down)
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Re: Arca Swiss F Line (171) vs Ebony SV45Te

Post by mpirie » Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:24 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

timparkin wrote: Sorry - it's the focussing rails I meant. You tighten up the philips screws at the top of the metal plates. Carry a screwdriver around with you though as when damp, the wood expands and can lock up the rails; loosen the screws off before this happens (if it does happen, it isn't anything to worry about. As the wood dries it will contract and you'll be back to normal). I like to have quite tight focussing rails hence the focus staying where it is when you let go (even with the camera pointed almost stright down)
Hi Tim,

That makes a lot of sense. I'll give it a try. I was a bit wary of making any adjustments because one of the cap nuts on the locking screws had already started to lose it's cap. Hiromi was kind enough to send a couple of spares for free.

Although the winters here in Norway are cold, they're very dry too, so when I travel back to Scotland I'll remember my toolkit ;-)

Thanks again,
Mike

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Re: Arca Swiss F Line (171) vs Ebony SV45Te

Post by Julian Boulter » Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:54 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Thought you guys might be interested in my own 'journey' through the range of cameras (posted here on my website) which is relevant to the initial post as it takes in an Arca F Line Field and Ebony 45s and finally the camera I settled on, an Arca Discovery:

http://www.photohome.uku.co.uk/largeformat.html

My goal once I got down to the toss up between the Ebony and the Arca was to end up with a camera both easy to setup and use but most importantly as stable as possible. Since writing this I have purchased an Arca B1 head to add to the rig and I would have to say that the Arca Discovery / Arca B1 / Gitzo 1348 combination is the absolute last word in useability and stability (and its suprisingly portable too!!).

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Re: Arca Swiss F Line (171) vs Ebony SV45Te

Post by Joanna Carter » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:35 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

timparkin wrote:Sorry - it's the focussing rails I meant. You tighten up the philips screws at the top of the metal plates. Carry a screwdriver around with you though as when damp, the wood expands and can lock up the rails; loosen the screws off before this happens (if it does happen, it isn't anything to worry about. As the wood dries it will contract and you'll be back to normal). I like to have quite tight focussing rails hence the focus staying where it is when you let go (even with the camera pointed almost stright down)
This is exactly what happened to both our Ebonys on the French workshop; the humidity was noticeable and it became very difficult to adjust focus, until we loosened the rail plates. However, it only took a couple of days and a change of location before the focusing became all too loose and we had to re-tighten the plates again. Not so much a nuisance, more a convenience to account for the ever living qualities of such a beautiful wooden camera :)
Reassure yourself - stroke an Ebony

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Re: Arca Swiss F Line (171) vs Ebony SV45Te

Post by mpirie » Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:50 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi Tim / Joanna,

Well, you were right, a small tweek on the screws above the focusing rails has improved the drag on the bed meaning that the locks as less necessary now.

Many thanks.

Mike

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