Jumping on the Jobo E6 bandwagon

[dave_whatever]

I've been mulling over the idea of getting a Jobo processor for 4x5 and 120 E6 film, in many ways spurred on my Tim's recent videos making it look easy (I blame you if this all goes wrong Tim! ). This is in part motivated by economy, the chance to get my develop my shots sooner than I am now, and to be able to shoot a bit more without bankrupting myself.

I've read some very useful threads like this one, this one, and this one, but still have a few uncertainties. So if you'll indulge me I've got a few questions for the Joboists (is that a word?) on here. Hopefully none of these have been answered in previous threads - if I'm covering old ground let me know:

• Has anyone using the 3-bath type of process managed to push or pull E6 sucessfully? One of the attractions of doing this yourself is that you're not being charged a premium by the lab for pushing film. However from what I've read on the 3-bath process it seems like pushing/pulling is difficult.
• Are the results genuinely the same as a pro lab using a 6-bath process? Or am I going to look back at home developed shots years down the line and wish I'd paid a few quid extra? Is there any archival difference?
• What is currently the cheapest place to get 3-bath 5ltr kits from? It seems that about 50 quid is the ballpark rate at the moment.
• Is there any meaningful difference between using Fuji/Kodak/Tetenal chemicals? Has anyone used more than one brand?
• I know the chemicals have a certain shelf-life after being opened, but do they have a shelf-life before opening, i.e. do I need to make sure I'm being sold a fresh batch or is it all gravy?
• Do the chemicals, like film, benefit in terms of longevity from being refrigerated or frozen?
• Overall, is it worth the hassle? This in an oportunity for anyone to talk me out of this. Has anyone done this for years and now wished they'd not bothered? Be honest.
• Am I asking too many questions?

Any other comments in general then please chip in - I would hope that this thread can be useful for other people looking at going down this particular road.

So don't be shy! Thanks.

[timparkin]

I've been mulling over the idea of getting a Jobo processor for 4x5 and 120 E6 film, in many ways spurred on my Tim's recent videos making it look easy (I blame you if this all goes wrong Tim! ). This is in part motivated by economy, the chance to get my develop my shots sooner than I am now, and to be able to shoot a bit more without bankrupting myself.

Oh lord! The responsibility!!

I've read some very useful threads like this one, this one, and this one, but still have a few uncertainties. So if you'll indulge me I've got a few questions for the Joboists (is that a word?) on here. Hopefully none of these have been answered in previous threads - if I'm covering old ground let me know:

• Has anyone using the 3-bath type of process managed to push or pull E6 sucessfully? One of the attractions of doing this yourself is that you're not being charged a premium by the lab for pushing film. However from what I've read on the 3-bath process it seems like pushing/pulling is difficult.

I've managed to push about 2/3 of a stop OK - I haven't tried pulling yet.. Richard Childs is the man to ask..

[*]Are the results genuinely the same as a pro lab using a 6-bath process? Or am I going to look back at home developed shots years down the line and wish I'd paid a few quid extra? Is there any archival difference?

I've seen that my velvia pictures have a slightly cooler, less magenta finish which I've very happy with. as far as resolution, shadow detail, etc. No problems at all. I've done quite a few comparisons with A sheet sent to a 'pro' and b sheet done by me.. no problems yet. I would recommend using distilled water to mix the chemicals to ensure ph is spot on. (some areas have different tap water ph's)

[*]What is currently the cheapest place to get 3-bath 5ltr kits from? It seems that about 50 quid is the ballpark rate at the moment.

I paid £50 for mine - couldn't see any other places .

[*]Is there any meaningful difference between using Fuji/Kodak/Tetenal chemicals? Has anyone used more than one brand?

Dav?!

[*]I know the chemicals have a certain shelf-life after being opened, but do they have a shelf-life before opening, i.e. do I need to make sure I'm being sold a fresh batch or is it all gravy?

Not sure - I think they have a good shelf life even opened as long as they don't get into contact with much air?

[*]Overall, is it worth the hassle? This in an oportunity for anyone to talk me out of this. Has anyone done this for years and now wished they'd not bothered? Be honest.

No it's not worth it.. leave it all alone, let the Jobo prices go down again

[gari]

Hi Dave, I have been processing for about 3/4 years now and have never considered going back.
I have used Kodak, Tetenal and Fuji chemicals and have found no real discernable difference between them, of course someone will at some point chip in with some interesting data or links to discussion to refute this but I havn't noticed any difference.

I get my stuff through Firsatcall, about £45/50 for a 5 litre kit and good service. I would suggest not storing them in the fridge as the storage is above 5deg, they warn against storing them somewher that may drop below that.

I have had unmixed chemicals around for maybe 8-10 months before the whole batch has been used up with no problem, it does oxidise quite quickly once made up to working solution however. I usually make up enough for one session, 2x4 sheets.
If I am going to do several batches I make up the working solution as I go. I tried making it 1ltr at a time but found to my cost that if I then don't shoot for a while, when I came to process the chemicals had oxidised, making it 1 batch at a time isn't any real hassle I find.

Push/pull is a big advantage of doing this yourself, it works fine. The tech sheet has push/pull times but as with mono it should be considered a starting point, as should the standard process times in fact. It is amazing how quickly you get a feel for your times, inc push/pull. I sometimes will process a batch and pull by just 20-30 sec as I want the highlights "just so"
The Temp is fairly critical, though a good jobo will work fine in this respect, mainly in the first bath and becoming less so as you go through the baths. But I have found it to be no more hassle/technically demanding than mono processing, the horror stories I read when looking into it almost made me not bother, I have to say that I have most if not all of these threads to be counter to what I have experienced since starting this journey. Don't let the adanoidal spreadsheet addicts put you off, the cost is a very small part of the benefit of doing this yourself. The P/Pull as aready mentioned, no postage worries and the smug self satisfaction is not to be overlooked either!!
It Aint rocket science, you just need to be methodical is all.

There my 2p worth.

Gari
PS, you know how excited you get when you open the envelope, wait till you open the drum!

[timparkin]

PS, you know how excited you get when you open the envelope, wait till you open the drum!

I should also add about temperature sensitivity. I once knocked the temperature control (or just set it badly) and processed a batch at 2 degrees below the listed temperature. They may have come out slightly darker but I couldn't really tell - they looked OK to me. I try to stay +/- a half a degree or so and have had no problems.

Tim

[dave_whatever]

PS, you know how excited you get when you open the envelope, wait till you open the drum!

I know a feeling of impending doom if that's what you mean!

Anyway, cheers for the above insight. Also thanks for introducing me to the word "adanoidal".

[gari]

Just imagine the clipboard wielding guys from Newman and Badiel, "you don't want to do it like that!!"

Beware, they are everywhere....

Gari

[uniB]

Hi Gari,

I've settled on the Kodak 6 bath E6 kit, I started off with Tetenal but I heard so many bad things about the blix (the name for the bleach / fixer mix that you get in the 3 bath kits) that the 3 bath kits use I decided to give the Kodak kit a go. The results are great, every bit a match for the lab. It's hard to say if blix might cause problems with colour shift with age.

I use the Jobo pro drum which takes 10 sheets, and produces even results - I did have a problem with the smaller Jobo drum, but it must just be me 'cause Tim isn't having any problems with it since I sold it to him!

I can really recommend AG Photographic, they are great, friendly to deal with and their prices are the best you'll find for chemicals. The Kodak 5Lt kit is £30 and the Fujihunt kit is £43.50 there which I think is cheaper than Firstcall – and it's good to support the specialist isn't it?!

When I next order some chemicals I might get a Fujihunt kit too so I can do some comparisons with the Kodak chems I'm uesd to.

Dav

[dave_whatever]

Suppose I better post to say thanks for all the above info, its all very useful. I'm still on the lookout for a Jobo processor at this stage.

Which leads me to another question or two. Firstly, I know the main bottom-end models are the CPE-2, CPA-2. However, There also seems to be an (older?) CPA without a 2 suffix. Anyone any idea what the practical difference is? Also, by the same logic there must be a non-2 CPE model - anyone any idea?

[gari]

Hi Dave, you are correct. Jobo made several different models when the going was good, The CPA and CPE were the forerunners. Most had a waterbath and some form of agitation, though there were a couple that didn't, can't remember the model numbers etc. Basically as they were developed the temp control and agitation modes expanded/became more efficient.
I currently use an old Duo-lab which is very different to the CP models in that it has slots for paper too, which could/can be used for film if its Ortho, xray for example. It is a single rotation in that it just goes in one direction, where the CP's are normally bi-directional. I have found it to be very reliable, when the motor goes I will use it for B/W film, I do Halfplate in it as a temp bath and roll agitate a Paterson tank, works great for that.

You can use Nova dunk tanks too for 5x4, if you use the chemistry as a replenish system they are very good for even developing. I find that every now and then I will get a drum that has some slight streaking. Same chemistry level, agitation, time etc so no real idea why..quite rare so I lose little sleep over it.

Hope that helps.

Gari

[dave_whatever]

You can use Nova dunk tanks too for 5x4, if you use the chemistry as a replenish system.....

I was with you all the way up to "You can use" there.

Are these Nova dunk things the type of thing you have to actually use in the dark then?

[gari]

Hey Dave, no they are daylight tanks like Jobos, you just load in the dark, a little like the Yankee tank.
http://www.novadarkroom.com/cat/205/Fil ... Tanks.html

Gari

[dave_whatever]

Cheers for that. I must admit I know nothing of these Nova things, so this info is very much appreciated.

*Edit* - I found this one that site too - is this the same thing you mean?

How does doing it in one of them stack up again a jobo rotational system then in terms of economy of chemicals, temp control, time, space, mess/faff etc?

*another edit* I presume with the dip/dunk system you have to use a sh!t load of chems but then just keep topping them up for subsequent runs (i assume this is whaat is meant by "replenishment"). So another question would be how does this stack up with occaisonal use? Looks like you're mixing up a large amount of chems, so presumably you'd need to be processing quite often to get though a kit before stuff oxidises and without it costing a lot more than a rotational system in chemicals.

[gari]

Thats a more involved affair that uses the combiplan which is better then the Yankee tank I think. The amount of chemistry would be less than a litre I would imagine, if I were using it I would only process when I had enough sheets to run the batch. So say for the sake of argument 1 ltr will process 48 sheets in terms of activity, I would just do 8 runs, adding a little time each process. These are best used for mono to be honest as the chemistry is so much cheaper, but if you are doing a batch from a roadtrip or you shoot alot of film they are a good alternative.

The made up chems are ok for about 24/36 hours so you don't actually have to do 8 cycles on the trot.
And of course if you want to do a replenish you can do a couple of cyles a day and replenish as you go, again if you are on a trip and processing the days sheets as you go say.

If you look at the cost of a jobo new you will see that they are quite cost effective, and as everyone is getting on the Jobo bandwagon they may be the only affordable game in town soon

Gari

[dave_whatever]

Sounds to me like I wouldn't be shooting enough volume to warrant the dip & dunk systems. I can imagine wanting to run say a dozen sheets through a jobo every now and again but if i'd need to accumulate say 40 odd sheets to make it work mixing chems for a dunker then its a different story, I could be waiting months in a particularly lean spell! Its certainly got me thinking of other options though. It does strike me that it aught to be fairly straightforward for the reasonable handy gent (or lady) to make a faux-jobo (fauxbo?) out of an aquariam heater, aquarium thermometer and a car wiper motor.

[gari]

Bearing in mind that the temp control is the onlr real issue on a set up like this, so if you can control the temp of the bath it just needs to be big enough for the tank. In terms of agitation you can just roll it by hand, a little tedious maybe but thats how I do my b/w in Pyro, I just have music or the radio on and "chill". As long as the agitation is consistent and fairly constant it should be fine, in fact as it isn't continuos it may help with the streaking ussues. If the motor packs on the duo I have, I would be more than happy to do this while hunting for a new Jobo to be honest.

I hearwhat you are saying re the amounts you may shoot. I get out quite a bit so am constantly processing, folks that have a life may have other things to do with their time!

Gari