cheap large format

[wannabegood]

hello all
i have been told to re-post this on the from an american forum

basiclly i want a large format camera (4x5) but the buget is <£100 (bit more if in good condition) by march april max

i have looked on ebay but they are only in the usa

i would build a kit but they look expensive

is there a diy way of procssing, without the expence of the tanks. peak want £2.50 a sheet


wannabegood

[Joanna Carter]

i have been told to re-post this on the from an american forum

That would have been me Welcome.

basiclly i want a large format camera (4x5) but the buget is <£100 (bit more if in good condition) by march april max

You might get a camera for < £100 but then you are going to need (at least) one lens, a couple of double dark slides, some film, a light meter, a cable release and a tripod.

i have looked on ebay but they are only in the usa

That's because there is a larger market of old 4x5 equipment over there than here.

i would build a kit but they look expensive

Bulldog cameras start from around £150. When you consider that the cheapest new cameras start from around £1200, that's a pretty good price. But don't forget all the other kit you will need.

is there a diy way of procssing, without the expence of the tanks. peak want £2.50 a sheet

If you want to develop B&W film, then you can use trays, as long as you have a completely dark room where you can do the developing. Colour film requires a temperature control within ±0.5° and isn't usually recommended without a thermostatically controlled drum processor.

[Patrick Dixon]

I've tried to do LF on the cheap, but even I didn't try to do it for as little as £100!

I think it's probably more realistic to budget £150-£200 for an old press camera like a Crown Graphic or a Busch Pressman with lens (usually a 127mm or 135mm with limited coverage and room for movements.). You'll then need some DDSs, a changing bag/tent (if you don't have a darkroom), a light meter and a tripod. Even on the very cheap those will add at least £100-£200 to the budget.

Most of the 4x5 press cameras are in the US (if they're in the UK they are already more expensive), so you'll also have to shell out for shipping and VAT on top of the eBay hammer price.

If you want to shoot cheap too, you need to think B&W and process yourself. A Paterson Orbital processor will process 1-4 sheets without requiring a darkroom, and they can be found on eBay for about £40 IIRC.

And then you'll want a film scanner ....

[wannabegood]

i found this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Graflex-Anniversa ... 518f921167

it is in the uk so no inport charges

for the tripod i and going to make a diy one out of wood (i have plans )

film i can pick up for £18.99 delivered

cable relese http://www.7dayshop.com/catalog/product ... ts_id=5989


wannabegood

[Marizu]

Make sure that you consider your whole system and workflow, though. You don't want to end up with a pile of negatives and no way of getting the prints that you want from them.

If you have a darkroom, you will be able to contact print the negs, but if you want them any bigger, then you will need to start thinking about a scanner that can handle the large negs or a 5x4 enlarger. Either of these will cost over £100

B&W processing is really cheap to do at home but colour is a little more tricky and expensive as Joanna said.

I've had some good luck with 'beater' cameras but usually these come in at closer to £200 if they have a lens and shutter. The one that you are looking at looks in good condition. I would expect it to finish over £100 but you never know.

Good luck!

[Joanna Carter]

i found this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Graflex-Anniversa ... 518f921167

You might like to check it has sufficient features and movements for the kind of photography you intend doing. http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/annive ... aphic.html It has no tilt or swing movements at all, only front rise and shift; very limiting.

Beware of buying based on photos, these cameras have things like a focusing cam which might not be the correct one for the lens that has been fitted; and locking rail clips that can need working on before they move easily.

for the tripod i and going to make a diy one out of wood (i have plans )

This camera was primarily designed to be a handheld press camera, but you would need fairly fast film and use larger apertures so to do.

It might seem like an easy job to make a tripod but, how would you allow for levelling the camera without having to adjust the legs? Most modern tripods use a three-way or ball head because adjusting the legs is not that easy.

[dave_whatever]

Short of waiting very patiently on ebay for several years for your ideal sub-ton camera to drop into your lap you could go really cheap and make your own 4x5 pinhole camera out of a cardboard box. This is probably the only way you'll get started for under £100 unless someone literally gives you a working camera.

You could also try trawling carboot sales and charity shops and hope you get lucky, but that can quickly eat up 100 of petrol money!

[Patrick Dixon]

film i can pick up for £18.99 delivered

You can buy 10 sheets of Provia for £14.90
http://www.7dayshop.com/catalog/product ... ts_id=5798

but it will cost you £2 - £2.50 to process. Alternatives to Peak include Genie
http://www.photos2you.co.uk/

I bet that speed graphic will go for over £200 - you wouldn't get many movements, but you'll get enough to keep you interested whilst you figure out the rest of LF.

[IanG]

As a Graflex/Graphic user, here's some comments.

I have 3, a Pacemaker Crown Graphic and a pre-Anniversary Speed Graphic, plus another Pacemaker Speed Graphic with no Focal Plane shutter (so effectively a Crown Graphic).

There's only movements in Landscape mode, front tilt & rise/fall which is sometimes rather restrictive, however my Crown Graphic is mainly used hand-held where movements are harder to use anyway. Despite mainly shooting in good light, at levels near the top of the exposure meter scale, I need to use 400 ISO film (@ 200 EI) to ensure sufficient DOF and more importantly an optimum f-stop as well as a reasonable shutter speed. That usually means working at f16 at between 1/50th and 1/200th.

Joanna makes a good point about the range-finder cams, my Crown came with a 1931135mm f4.5 Tessar in a rimset Compur, I found the range-finder was way out. However I bought an excellent pair of T-coated 150mm f4.5mm Tessar cells and switched the elements, now the Rangefinder is accurate. This camera has a Hugo Meyer range-finder which has to match a focal length.

A few other notes about Graphics. Most can be quite easily restored even those in quite dire condition, but you may need to hunt for parts. The worst two problems are damaged inner focus tracks, caused by forcibly closing the cameras before the focus bed has been fully retracted and the front standard pushed fully into the body, secondly leaking bellows.

Focal plane shutters aren't difficult to renovate and there's instructions & patterns online if you need to make a new shutter curtain

About 3 or 4 years ago I bought two Speed Graphics being sold as "make one good camera out of the parts" on arrival from the US I found one was a Pacemaker, the other a pre-Anniversary and that no parts were interchangeable and both looked total write off's. However it took very little time and effort or cost to restore both. The only costs were leatherette, glue, paint and a couple of rear rails for the Pacemaker, and I made twos new focu screens.

Kalart range-finders can be calibrated to a focal length lens of your choice, there are patterns online to help you make a cam if you can't find the correct one, it's also not hard to replace range-finder bean-splitter mirrors etc.

So what ever you do don't pay much for a Crown/Speed Graphic, if your lucky and get a lens with it test it & the shutter. My 135mm Tessar was just OK but the shutter very accurate, the lens needed to be used at f16 - f22 before the corners were sharp but that's normal for Tessar designs, it just covered 5x4 with no room for movements. The more modern (mid 50's) coated 150mm Tessar I now use has better coverage, corner sharpness is very good by f11 but excellent at f16 and the results indistinguishable from the Sironar's & Symmar's I use on my Wista.

There's something rather odd about the back on that Anniversary Speed on Ebay, someone has modified it, the normal springs are missing, and that's a Pacemaker focus screen frame & hood, I'm not sure if it'll now take dark-slides properly,looks like one of the new bits is a missing there would need to be a metal slider at the bottom to match one at the top the screw holes where it was fitted are there in the photo's. Look at page 22 of the manual (link is given by the seller). There's only a limited front tilt with the Anniversary model a Pacemaker would be slightly better.

A really nice Pacemaker Speed fully restored sold on Ebay for £78 a few days ago, I wouldn't pay more than £100-£125 for one - and I paid far less for mine even with shipping from the US.

Ian

[Joanna Carter]

You can buy 10 sheets of Provia for £14.90
http://www.7dayshop.com/catalog/product ... ts_id=5798

but it will cost you £2 - £2.50 to process. Alternatives to Peak include Genie
http://www.photos2you.co.uk/

But he can't process that at home and I think that the cost of procesing could be an obstacle.

I bet that speed graphic will go for over £200 - you wouldn't get many movements, but you'll get enough to keep you interested whilst you figure out the rest of LF.

But, even getting more lenses for the Speed Graphic could be problematic. Then there's the question of having two shutters, including the focal plane one; this is extra unnecessary complexity. Personally, I would not counsel getting such a camera in the first place, especially sight unseen.

See Ian's post for more warnings.

[Patrick Dixon]

But Joanna, his whole budget is a hundred quid - additional lenses are not going to be on the menu! If you have a limited budget you have to take some risks on equipment and not be too choosy. It's really a question of what's available rather than what's ideal, and lets face it, if you have a decent shutter and glass, and the thing is light-tight, the rest is just icing on the cake.

I do agree about the costs of processing colour which I why I also suggested B&W and self processing.

[IanG]

Can't see why getting more lenses for a Speed/Crown Graphic is problematic, all my 5x4 lenses fit.. New lens boards are still made for Pacemakers, and the earlier ones for pre & Anniversary are easy to make (wooden) and so it's no different to any other Large format camera in that respect.

The second shutter can be very useful it allows barrel lenses to be used which is great for portraits, and experimental work, it gets left on the T setting open if you don't want to use it.

Personally I prefer the Crown Graphic because it's lighter, simple , but I'd recommend something an MPP MkVII as a better entry level 5x4 camera as it has far better movements.

Ian

[Patrick Dixon]

I have a Busch Pressman D which is quite reasonable, but the major disadvantage is that the lens boards are tiny and difficult to buy. You can't fit lenses with large rear elements, as they don't fit through the bellows frame at the front. But there are still plenty of lenses to choose from, especially if you go for lightweight period lenses like the Kodak Ektars.

I think mine cost about £150 all in from the US, including a 127mm Ektar. I am the second owner and have the original bill of sale ... which is nice.

[PAUL O]

LF and cheap rarely appear in the same sentence
Unfortunately the kit required just to get you off the ground is going to cost substantially more than your budget .... and then you get hooked and the money just drains away

[Joanna Carter]

LF and cheap rarely appear in the same sentence
Unfortunately the kit required just to get you off the ground is going to cost substantially more than your budget .... and then you get hooked and the money just drains away

You never told me that at that first meeting in Keswick