Cityscapes : you can't photograph here without authorisation

A place to talk about photography, the meaning of life and anything that doesn't quite fit elsewhere
Darwinean_John
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:29 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: London / Suffolk

Cityscapes : you can't photograph here without authorisation

Post by Darwinean_John » Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:57 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I was wondering how much each of us had suffered from restrictions on freedom to take photographs by private security and / or police.
I have been told to stop twice in London :
- In the square of Aviva Insurance HO (EC2) with nice views onto the Gherkin, Lloyds Insurance and the new Willis building
- Outside the GLA / mayor’s office on the banks of the Thames overlooking the City and Tower of London
I have also seen a photographer, with authorisation papers, challenged every 5mins or so by different Canary Wharf private security staff. Even though he had the papers, the constant disruption was a pain and he told me he wouldn’t do this again.
In all three cases, the challenges were by private security uniformed staff, on private property whilst the photographer was using a tripod.
But, if we stick to the public pavements, I assumed these people couldn’t touch us.
However, I was reading about the experiences of some New York photographers who also suffer from challenges from private security whilst photographing privately-owned buildings from public areas.
And when police have been called, they have usually backed up the private security firm and / or asserted that the photographer is causing the equivalent of the UK’s ‘breach of the peace’.
The suspicion building owners are stopping photographers for business purposes, not security reasons. By restricting who can photograph their building increases the value of the one, and only, authorised photographer’s images.
Since when have corporations owned public walkways?
I wondered whether these challenges are the same, or even worse, for LF photographers.
Still learning to see

DJ
Site Admin
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:48 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: Norfolk

Re: Cityscapes : you can't photograph here without authorisation

Post by DJ » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:34 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

If you're in a public place, you're entitled to take photographs, and you don't have to justify why to anybody, including the Police. However if the Police do ask you why, then I wouldn't advocate being belligerent about it. The Police can curently stop and search you under Section 44 of the Terrorist Act 2000 if those powers have been granted for that area, however, this has been deemed illegal by the European Courts. The Home Office has ignored the ruling and continues to use the powers whilst it lodges an appeal against the ruling. The Metropolitan Police and Chief Constables have issues guidelines several times to it's officers which is routinely ignored. At no time do officers have the right to delete any images, even if stopped and searched under Section 44.

http://www.met.police.uk/about/photography.htm

http://photographernotaterrorist.org/

http://www.sirimo.co.uk/2009/05/14/uk-p ... rights-v2/

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPa ... age=872546

Charles Twist
Founder
Posts: 721
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:33 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: Cleveland
Contact:

Re: Cityscapes : you can't photograph here without authorisation

Post by Charles Twist » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:51 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

DJ's answer is smack on. There are two further risks you may want to consider: (i) your tripod is a tripping hazard (I've had one property holder tell me it would cost £200 a day to have some stand next to me while I photographed :shock: ); (ii) the public sees paedophiles everywhere and are quick to alert the police (I like LF: you get really good resolution of all the important bits... :wink: ). For the latter, I would advocate giving out your web address as a proof of legitimacy - it's also good advertising for you - and staying calm and courteous. But yes, it does all waste time. I try to go with my wife when I can so she can keep an eye on the kit and talk to the curious and indignant. I have often thought that taking a bar stool with a 1/4" BSW bolt to tie the camera would get around both: not a tripping hazard and more entertaining than perverted.
Good luck!
Charles

User avatar
Thingy
Forum Hero
Posts: 578
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:13 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: Orpington, Kent

Re: Cityscapes : you can't photograph here without authorisation

Post by Thingy » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:45 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I keep getting asked this at work, from people coming from abroad to photograph the office. Below is my standard reply...

[...]
There has been concern that the police have been restricting people taking photographs (still images) of Parliament citing either sections 44 or 58A of the Terrorism Act 2000. The law on this matter was discussed in a recent debate in Westminster Hall (HC Deb 1 April 2009 cc262-269WH) where the Minister indicated that a circular will be issued to all police officers and forces clarifying the ambit of the legislation (ibid. 268WH below).

The Minister (The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Shahid Malik) said:
I want to be clear about this: the offence does not capture an innocent tourist taking a photograph of a police officer, or a journalist photographing police officers as part of his or her job. It does not criminalise the normal taking of photographs of the police. Police officers have the discretion to ask people not to take photographs for public safety or security reasons, but the taking of photographs in a public place is not subject to any rule or statute. There are no legal restrictions on photography in a public place, and there is no presumption of privacy for individuals in a public place.
My hon. Friend the Minister for Security, Counter-Terrorism, Crime and Policing has said that we will issue all police officers and forces with a circular on the new offence. It will set out the policy intentions behind the offence and make it clear that it does not criminalise legitimate photographic or journalistic activity. The circular will be discussed with interested parties before it is issued.
HC Deb 1 April 2009 cc268WH

The Home Office circular, Photography and the Terrorism Act, is now available from the Home Office, via the link below.
URL: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/p ... /012-2009/

Terrorism Act 2000, s44 can be viewed at: URL: http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/SearchResu ... ll+Primary
Terrorism Act 2000 , s58A was added by s76 of the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008, which can be viewed at the link below.
URL: http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/SearchResu ... ll+Primary

There have also been a couple of letter between MPs and Ministers on this topic in response to Parliamentary Questions. These are:

Letter dated 16/02/2009 from Vernon Coaker MP to David Anderson MP regarding photography in public places [DEP2009-0968]:
URL: http://www.parliament.uk/deposits/depos ... 9-0968.pdf

Letter dated 16/02/2009 from Vernon Coaker MP to Bob Spink MP regarding photography in public places [DEP2009-0967]:
URL: http://www.parliament.uk/deposits/depos ... 9-0967.pdf
Love is an Ebony mounted with a Cooke PS945.......

craigmagee
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:05 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Re: Cityscapes : you can't photograph here without authorisation

Post by craigmagee » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:42 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I find usually if you make the effort to ask the security beforehand and tell them what you want to shoot they are pretty accommodating.
I imagine its not so easy in London but I find here in the Northwest most security are pretty friendly and bored most of the time.

I've managed to gain access to roof's of buildings in the past just by asking the guy on the door how I'd go about it, usually a quick radio check with someone and I'm escorted up there.

If you start getting irrate then people are going to be the same, just stay calm and be polite. If you know your being a bit naughty and shouldn't really be there just play dumb and make a bit of an effort to 'leave', a lot of the time they'll just let you carry on in the end!!

The 'tripping hazard' excuse is just nonsense, really if your out in the open and there is plenty of space around you then the HSE are not going to bat an eyelid. Check your camera insurance policy, mine gives my personal indemnity cover upto £1m so if someone does manage to miss me and the tripod and fall over then they can knock themselves out trying to sue me. :roll:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig Magee - http://www.craigmagee.co.uk - http://blog.craigmagee.co.uk

Darwinean_John
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:29 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: London / Suffolk

Re: Cityscapes : you can't photograph here without authorisation

Post by Darwinean_John » Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:24 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Thanks for these clarifications.
It strikes me that, when challenged, it is important to be courteous and, armed with the above-mentioned intentions of parliament, confident / firm about your position.
I agree that some of the peripheral risks mentioned above also need to be managed to deny some of the 'jobs-worths' any excuses to press their 'case'.
Thanks again and good luck.
Still learning to see

User avatar
Thingy
Forum Hero
Posts: 578
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:13 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: Orpington, Kent

Re: Cityscapes : you can't photograph here without authorisation

Post by Thingy » Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:46 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Darwinean_John wrote:Thanks for these clarifications.
It strikes me that, when challenged, it is important to be courteous and, armed with the above-mentioned intentions of parliament, confident / firm about your position.
I agree that some of the peripheral risks mentioned above also need to be managed to deny some of the 'jobs-worths' any excuses to press their 'case'.
Thanks again and good luck.
Er, except in Westminster where you get the nozzle of a sub-machine gun pointed in your face...... :(
Love is an Ebony mounted with a Cooke PS945.......

hmvmanuk
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:03 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: York

Re: Cityscapes : you can't photograph here without authorisation

Post by hmvmanuk » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:39 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

You wouldn't think that somebody with their head stuck under a dark cloth peering at the screen of a LF camera would be deemed to be that suspicious. But you can't be sure: cut to a cave in darkest Pakganistan. Osama sits addressing a crack team of his operatives, "Go forth immediately to the UK and to public places and there you must find out all you can about the Scheimpflug principle..." :mrgreen:

Dave Tolcher

Re: Cityscapes : you can't photograph here without authorisation

Post by Dave Tolcher » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:55 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Its not just cities..... now a proud owner of stop & search papers from our finest while out in the snow on the N Y Moors within the vicinity of the Fylingdales area (Fenn Bog to be precise). I thought they had stopped to ask me whether I was stuck in the snow, silly me !! It was all very friendly and well done but I was neverthless very surprised that it has come to this.

hmvmanuk
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:03 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: York

Re: Cityscapes : you can't photograph here without authorisation

Post by hmvmanuk » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:20 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Bl***y hell, Dave, I've been intending to go up that way to start my LF activities! I'm just waiting to see what's going to happen when I venture out into the streets of York :roll:

Charles Twist
Founder
Posts: 721
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:33 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: Cleveland
Contact:

Re: Cityscapes : you can't photograph here without authorisation

Post by Charles Twist » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:45 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hello Dave,
With due respect, which side of the boundary were you on? A lot of that area actually is off bounds even though there are no fences and the footpath to Lilla cross is marked by white pegs you can't see in the snow. I found out recently that airplanes are not allowed to fly over Fylingdales: it seems they're a little touchy around there.

Hmvmanuk:
As for York, my main concern would be the crowds and keeping an eye on the gear. Having said that, my wife got stopped by a wpc ably supported by the mounted police (you never know...) for taking pictures of me in Middlesbrough.

Best regards,
Charles

Dave Tolcher

Re: Cityscapes : you can't photograph here without authorisation

Post by Dave Tolcher » Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:46 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi Charles, no disrespect taken :D yes I was aware of the restricted areas, the listening devices and cameras etc and that it is a touchy area which I do avoid as I just dont want the hassle or see the point of provoking for the sake of a piccie. I was in the layby on the road to Goathland ! No white pegs there....

DJ
Site Admin
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:48 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: Norfolk

Re: Cityscapes : you can't photograph here without authorisation

Post by DJ » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:42 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Dave,

Under what legislation were you stopped? Was it Section 44? If you were stopped and search under Section 44 of the Terrorist Act 2000 then are they seriously suggesting that a bunch of (admittedly lovely) hills are a terrorist target?! It appears that the Police officers are blatantly ignoring the guidelines passed down to them as usual.

Charles Twist
Founder
Posts: 721
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:33 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: Cleveland
Contact:

Re: Cityscapes : you can't photograph here without authorisation

Post by Charles Twist » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:19 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

:shock:
Bl**dy 'ell!
Charles

Sean Lewis
Forum Hero
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:43 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Workshop Images: http://500px.com/Sean_Lewis
Location: Slindon, West Sussex
Contact:

Re: Cityscapes : you can't photograph here without authorisation

Post by Sean Lewis » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:04 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

How long is it going to be before it's illegal to photograph the coast for fear of terrorist reconnaissance!? :@

Sean

Post Reply