Lenses for 20" x 16" Camera.

[Greg Woodward]

Hi all,

I am in the process of making a 20" x 16" glass plate camera and am in need of advice on the lens sizes I should be using. I have come across this http://www.giangrandi.ch/optics/lenses/focalcalc.html and have estimated that 300mm is the VERY smallest I could really get away with.

The camera is for studio use. I need it to have full movements as well.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Greg

[Charles Twist]

I don't have direct experience to answer your query but can provide pointers and will be glad to hear what others have to say. The diagonal of your image would be 650mm. So your image circle has to cover that and quite a lot more by the sound of it. Have a look at Ebony's list of lenses and you'll see how few lenses have anywhere near that. Now those image circles are for a lens focussed at infinity and they will increase for a shorter focussing distance. I would be curious to know how to calculate the image circle as one focusses nearer, eg in Greg's studio. A 300 mm focal length on 20x16 is equivalent to 75mm on 5x4, so I wouldn't expect much room at infinity but things could easily improve at closer range. You would also have quite a bit of spatial distortion with the wide angle. A more natural perspective would be 150mm-250mm on 5x4, equiv to 600-1000mm on 20x16. Take in to account the bellows factor and that is a big camera...
For studio work, I would guess that a process lens is the best bet on this format.
Regards,
Charles

[michaelfinch]

I have a couple of repro lenses standing idle these days. Neither is in a shutter. They are: a Rodenstock f9 480mm Apo-Ronar and a Schneider f9 355mm G-Claron. Both will cover a broadsheet newspaper; if I remember rightly, the Rodenstock covers two pages at 1:1. The Rodenstock stops down to f 260 and the Schneider to a more modest f64. Using small apertures and long exposures, both can be "shuttered" with the lens cap. Both are in generally good condition with smooth running irises, no scratches and no blemishes . If of any interest, let me know - and good luck with the project!

[dave_whatever]

If you're going to be shooting stuff like head& shoulder portraits on 20x16 then you'll be pretty much at life size, and hence you're lens image circles will be double their infinity values, might be worth keeping in mind.

[Andrew Plume]

Hi Greg

all best luck with your project - in the meantime, I'm 99% certain that lenses which will cover this format have been discussed quite a few times over on the Large Format Photography Forum

there's also some decent information on the (what now seems to be the fairly defunct) Mamut Photo website - http://www.mamutphoto.com/content/view/141/43/lang,en/

and over on apug, there is also a dedicated Ultra Large Format Forum - http://www.apug.org/forums/forum187/ and I'd be really surprised if you didn't find what you're looking for there

as Charles suggested, the old process lenses are probably the best and also cheapest 'line of lenses' for covering this format - you will almost certainly have to accept that they are non-shuttered, generally as a result of their size

and finally availability may be an issue and also from memory, there were not too many lenses made to cover this size and certainly none are currently being produced

regards

andrew

[Marizu]

The thing to remember is that coverage for process lenses is usually specified for 1:1 reproduction so it would be a lot less at infinity.
I am lazily planning a similar wet plate project.

I expect that my 600mm f9 Ronar will probablycover that size (standard lens?). I am not sure about my 480mm f9 Ronar because I am guessing that coverage for that lens is specified at 1:1.

I have recently procured a 36mm f6.3(!) lens from an aircraft (thank you Fourtoes ).

I would seriously consider building for a 9 inch lens board in case you come into big glass.
I don't really see any glass around that would make a wide angle and cover on that kind of size of plate (except the Schneder Fine Art XXL 550mm).
Demanding movements is going to compound your coverage issues.

As you are making the camera yourself, I would suggest making a number of inserts for smaller plate sizes. That way, you might be able to cover 20x16 with minimal movements but 20x8 with much greater movements, for example.

I'm not a fetishist for using old brass lenses for wet plate but modern big coverage lenses are generally slow (f9/f11/ f22!). In this case, if your pockets are deep enough, move up to br-ass

[Andrew Plume]

Hey Greg

I'm sorry to say that I'm a little sad for those on here (including me) who have taken the time to reply to your post, that there's been (so far) no acknowledgement to the input posted for you................................?

it's clear that you're around since you've just joined the Large Format Photography Forum and made a similar post (to this one) over on there yesterday - should we assume fwiw that you weren't that satisfied with the input posted on here?

fwiw i know that I have a decent amount of information (and written by very reputable ULF photographers) available that cover this format and I was intending to post these details on here for you but................

and changing tack if you want to build a 16x20 camera with all and every movement, that's one heck of a project that you're contemplating and fyi take a look at Jim Fitzgerald's self bult ULF camera over on the other forum and also the underrated JB Harlin has built ULF cameras in the past

andrew

[Andrew Plume]

.................. if your pockets are deep enough, move up to br-ass

yes indeed - brass is the only way to go..............................

andrew

[Andrew Plume]

Greg

have a look at this ebay item - 170681482969 typically there's no flange

andrew

[Marizu]

I'm sorry to say that I'm a little sad for those on here (including me) who have taken the time to reply to your post, that there's been (so far) no acknowledgement to the input posted for you................................?

it's clear that you're around since you've just joined the Large Format Photography Forum and made a similar post (to this one) over on there yesterday - should we assume fwiw that you weren't that satisfied with the input posted on here?

Hi Andrew, don't be upset with Greg, this is probably my fault.
I PM'd him with the auction number of an 800mm Ronar and I suggested that he asks at forums like apug, collodion and the other large format forum where there is a more global reach and more people shooting larger formats.

Sorry if that has been disruptive and nudged things off the thread.

[Andrew Plume]

Hi Marizu

good to hear from you

no, you weren't being disruptive at all - I'd already supplied Greg with links to other forums anyhow

best

andrew

[Charles Twist]

I saw that Cooke lens being sold at the local auction house. The guy got it for £25, but I had no use for it since I couldn't see how to build a practical ULF camera which could be taken in the field and not take up half of one room when at home... And the aperture blades were all loose - seemed a bit like work. Caveat emptor.
Regards,
Charles

[Andrew Plume]

ah ha Charles, very interesting indeed......................

a very small world it is , this sort of thing in the UK

best regards

andrew

[Greg Woodward]

Hi All,

Sorry I haven't replied to anyone, I have literally only just realised this was here. Like Marizu said he PM me and I presumed I got a message every time someone commented on the thread.

Obviously not, thank you all so much for you help. I am scheduled to start the build this coming Wednesday, almost finished the technical drawings now.

In regards to sorting out this lens problem, I am going to see a gent on Monday about a 600mm APO Ronar lens. Any thoughts? I have just about come to terms now with the fact this camera is most likely going to be shutterless none the less I spoke to another gent on the phone who seemed to think he could fit a copal shutter on it? News to me.

Also providing the Taylor Hobson Cooke lens remains fairly cheap I think I might go for it, even if it is just for experimental purposes.

I was hoping for a smaller lensboard size but will try and revise my plans a little bit as I guess whichever way I go these lenses are going to be bigggggg.

Thank you all again for you help and links, all of them have been taken onboard and I am going through some of the links now.

Sorry for my incompetence on the forum, bit of a newbie.

Greg

[Andrew Plume]

thanks for your decent post Greg

what you should ensure when it comes to the 600mm f9 apo-ronar is that it definitely comes with a built in flange - certainly all of the barrel mounted ronar's that I've seen all come with a flange, that's if you are intending to use it without a shutter

and yes from my knowledge, they can be mounted into a shutter, an Ilex#5 in fact, as from memory they are too wide to be mounted into a modern Copal shutter (although I'm less than 99% certain here) - by a country mile the best at mounting barrel lenses into shutters are skgrimes over in RI - grimes are excellent , not too quick but pricey - here's a link to their site in which they have a table of barrel lenses which can so be mounted, coincidentally the 600mm ronar is on there.....................................http://www.skgrimes.com/lens-mounting/t ... o-shutters

and if you were wondering, there's no one as far as I know in the UK who does this sort of work

fwiw, the Ilex#5 is the largest shutter that was ever built (for these purposes)

good luck

andrew