Fogging

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Nick Coombs
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Fogging

Post by Nick Coombs » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:54 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi ya...

I am having an issue with fogging and I think I may know the answer, but as of yet I am still on the step learning curve so I thought I would ask the question...

I brought from ebay 4 boxes of out of date "2008" Fuji Provia that came sealed and stored in a fridge from new, This I thought would be a good idea as I knew I need to learn the process of load/unload darkslides and loading the dev tank, and I expected to be all finger and thumbs at first, as of the time of this posting I have exposed 6 sheets of film, and used 3 different darkslides, my first run I took one sheet of film from 2 slides and processed them. One sheet I noticed had some fogging to the middle of the frame, The next time I processed I did 4 sheets and have noticed that all four suffer from fogging around the same area.

So I checked the camera and bellows to make use that it light tight I also checked the darkslides and checked that they sat tight on the back of the camera and I found no problems at all...

When I process I try my very best to stick to the time given and the only problem I have is filling and emptying the Tank, it takes about 30sec to fill and 40sec to empty fully but I adjust my time with this in mind and if I over run it by no more than about 10sec. The only problem I do have is the washing cycle I find it hard to maintain a constant good temperature, sometime's the water will run at lets say 30c and then for so reason will shout upto 40+

So my question is this, would my problem be with the Film or do I need to nail down my processing more... or is their another reason that I have over looked

zoikes
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Re: Fogging

Post by zoikes » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:28 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi

I think this must be a (small) light leak in the camera.
Have you tried 'exposing' a film in a darkslide (within the camera) for 30s without opening the shutter?

From your fill / drain times it sounds like you are using a combiplan. I have not had any problems with the combiplan, but deliberately chose D76 at 1+2 to give me a dev time of about 15 minutes. 30s filling is a small fraction of this. I also drain upside down to equalise (sort of) the time in the dev.

For washing, I use the 'ilford' method of 5 inversions - change water, 10 inversions - change water - 20 inversions (and usually another water change and 20 inversions for luck). This way there are no temperature surprises - and more to the point I can use Brita filtered water to keep the crud off!

Of course - this is all for black and white - but in terms of the mechanics of development, would provia be much different?

Ian

Nick Coombs
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Re: Fogging

Post by Nick Coombs » Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:17 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi...

Update, I went out and did a couple more test shots after I checked the camera for light leaks, I found a few very tiny and I mean tiny holes in the bellows that I have covered.

But the problem has not gone away and I don't think that my issue is to do with light leaks, but then again I am new to this.

I have attached a image showing a couple of example sheets of film showing fogged "or what I call fogged" film...

Image
Very sorry about the url but I could not work out how to add a picture...
Last edited by Nick Coombs on Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:33 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fogging

Post by Ed Moss » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:43 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Try going into a dark room and shining a very bright torch through the bellows, with the lens off. You should be able to see light spilling out if you have any light leaks (make sure the torch is sealed in the end so there is no light spill.)

Nick Coombs
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Re: Fogging

Post by Nick Coombs » Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:18 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi..

I have taken the camera to the darkest room " Attic " and done what you recommended and found no light leaks of any kind.

So Now I have turned my head to my process setup and taken a look at that, I use a stainless still tank that takes 6 sheets of film each held in a frame and supported in the tank by guild rails, the chemicals are poured in the tank down a small spout which tanks about 30sec to fill and drains by a small out let at the base of the tank this takes about 30/40sec to empty, all my chemicals are pre heated in a warm bath until I am ready to go the first two Dev's are heated and used at 38c for the length of time "6:30" before each change I wash the tank through with warm water for a few minutes.

Today I tried to shorten the fill time for all Chemicals and to add aggregation... but as the first step has to be done in complete darkness I filled and emptied the tank as before and carried out the wash in darkness, I then filled the tank as before but as soon as the tank was full i removed the lid and for the rest of the processing I did with the lid removed, this allowed me to fill and empty the tank very quickly and helped with the wash process, I also gave the tank a gentle rock back and forth to help with aggregation.

But none of this helped...

The chemicals are new to me brought only 10days ago. My question is can poor processing and aggregation give me the effect I am seeing on my processed sheets of film or is it bad /out of date film or a chemical failure....

Thanks..

Wilson Cheung
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Re: Fogging

Post by Wilson Cheung » Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:13 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Those do not look like light leaks, if they were I would expect them to show up as bright rather than dark.

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Re: Fogging

Post by Joanna Carter » Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:44 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I cannot get to the Flickr page you link to without a Yahoo login.
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Nick Coombs
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Re: Fogging

Post by Nick Coombs » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:26 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi Joanna...

I have just tried the link from a machine that I haven't used before and I did not get asked to login to yahoo...
But thanks for trying to look and helping me out with this issue.

If I could work out how to I would like to have placed the images into the body of the text in one of my post...
I did take a look and followed an example of how to do this but all I could get was a place holder box but no image.

Joanna... took another look at how to link images and sorted it....

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Re: Fogging

Post by dave_whatever » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:10 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I can't imaging anything in-camera that would give you those results. I only have experience of rotary processing, but I would look there for potential problems. The second sheet almost looks like its not had any developer on it!

I suppose also there hould be a manufacturing fault with the film but it seems unlikely. You could shoot a sheet and get it developed commercially, then you could rule out film faults and in-camera issues for definite.

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Re: Fogging

Post by Nick Coombs » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:40 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi...

First I would like to thank you all for your advice on trying to get to the bottom of this issue, and I now think I have resolved it.

I changed my Dev tank today to a Patterson and I tried the Taco method of processing, the new tank allowed me to fill and empty the tank very quick and also I agitated the tank a lot more than I did with the Dallan tank that I been using, I also pre washed the film in warm water just prior to starting the developing process.

I have only processed one sheet using this method but all went well....

one question.... I have a few sheets of film that are fogged is their anything I can do to fix this...

Thanks

Nick Coombs
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Re: Fogging

Post by Nick Coombs » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:20 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Update...

The other day I processed 2 sheets or Provia and one sheets of Velvia in the same tank which I have done once before with no problems, This time the Velvia came out of the process fogged, I had another go as I had the same two more sheets of Provia and 1 sheet of Velvia to do, This time I changed my technic from inverting the tank twice every min to 5 every min. But still the Velvia was fogged but the Provia was fine.

Now I was starting to collect a number of fogged sheets of film, so as I had nothing to loose I tried running a couple of the fogged sheets back through the process of developing film again, but this time all done in day light and in a tray, The first two process 1st Dev, Color Dev made no difference, but the 3rd process Bleach/Fix worked I put a single sheet in the tray for about 2 mins with the chemical at room temperature then a 2 min wash, this removed all signs of the Brown fogged stain on the film.

So I set about doing the same for all my fogged sheets of film and now all fixed.

All I have to do now is work out what going wrong in the first place so I don't get fogged film full stop....

gary mulder
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Re: Fogging

Post by gary mulder » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:41 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Take a good look at the wash between the 2e dev and the bleach/fix. And use only fresh bleach/fix. That stuff is kind of self destruct once prepared.

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Valerio Trigari
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Re: Fogging

Post by Valerio Trigari » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:31 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi there,

I'm experiencing an identical issue with my B&W sheets of Delta 100. On Sunday I exposed 10 sheets and 7 of them showed a dark band along the narrow side opposite to the one with notches, therefore along the side closer to the slit where the dark slide fits into. Here are the steps I followed, from start to finish:

1) Before taking any photo, I checked my bellows by closing the shutter, wrapping the dark cloth around my head so that I was in absolute darnkess. I waited at least 30 seconds to make sure my eyes adjusted to darkeness. I tried this with both my 150mm and 90mm lenses and I could not see any leak whatsoever.

2) The sheets were loaded and un-loaded into the film holders, as well as loaded into the developing tank, inside a Calumet light-tight tent, with no light in the room or with no direct light.

3) I exposed the sheets by completely removing the dark slide from the holder, and then re-inserting it immediately after exposure, with the slide flipped by 180 degrees, so that I knew which film was exposed.

4) The film was developed in plain light (after being loaded as per point #2), following the exact instructions for Ilford Ilfosol 3, then followed by stop and fixing bath, with a final 15 minutes rinse in running water. I made sure the tank was sealed properly.

Initially I thought it was caused by the sheets sticking to each other in the developing tank, but the borders of the sheets close to the dark band are completely transparent, meaning that the developer acted properly. Currently I think the main culprit could be point #3, i.e. completely removing the dark slide from the holder, before taking the shot. Is that the correct procedure?

I will upload a sample of one the sheets I scanned, to show what happened more clearly. I would be really greatful if you could shed some light on this issue! :)

Thank you very much,

Val
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Proud owner of a Linhof Technikardan 45.

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Re: Fogging

Post by Joanna Carter » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:39 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

To the best of my knowledge, whether you get fogging by completely removing the dark slide will depend on the age of your DDS holders and how worn the light trap is. But, if that is what you suspect, then I would suggest you take another shot without completely removing the slide.
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Valerio Trigari
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Re: Fogging

Post by Valerio Trigari » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:47 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Thanks Joanna, that's what I tought I would be doing as well. I bought some Fomapan film, for a two-fold reason: trying a different film and doing some tests without costing me a fortune. ;)
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