Thinking of jumping into LF

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Julian Elliott
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Re: Thinking of jumping into LF

Post by Julian Elliott » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:25 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

When I take out my Hassy, I generally take the three lenses that I have with it: 50mm, 80mm and 150mm.

Being a landscaper, I do tend to shoot wide angle stuff a lot. I know that a 90mm lens is considered a typical wide format lens to have.

With regards to movements, what should I be looking for?

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Re: Thinking of jumping into LF

Post by Charles Twist » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:42 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

The other consideration in all this is roll-film backs which not all cameras accept gracefully. I really like 6x17 but the Technikardan I had for a couple years, made it very difficult to use. Now that I am also using a brace of vintage barrel lenses, I am using a Sinar F monorail. Excellent spec but not the fastest to set up, so not the best for changeable weather. There are some fantastic deals however to be had on the auction site considering the quality of what you end up with (camera + 2 bellows + lens panel for £250).

My starter LF camera was a Toyo 45A and I loved it. A bit rough and ready, not up to serious architecture photography or for anything wider than 75mm, but so easy to set up and so compact & rugged. A brilliant landscape photography camera. Ebony's are very expensive for what they are. Walker's are solid and well built, plus you can talk to Mike if you're not happy.

I think you will have to accept evolution. Start with something which covers most of your needs and which you know you can sell on easily (ie don't buy something battered because it's cheap). See where your photography takes you and adapt. Above all, have fun.

Regards,
Charles

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Re: Thinking of jumping into LF

Post by Julian Elliott » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:15 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

OK, thanks for all the answers so far.

I kind of have something in my head but unsure if it will work!

Personally, I love my Hasselblad. However, as mentioned elsewhere I'm starting to see it as basically a bigger SLR. That's where it is now stopping for me.

I know that if I were to sell my Hasselblad then I could get enough cash together to get something I want rather than something I'm wanting but want to upgrade at some point.

So, before I go nuts, I need a little help here:

1) Is it possible on a 4x5 camera to use 120 roll film as 6x6? From what I've seen, it appears so. What are my options? My thinking is that if this were indeed possible, I would have camera movements available to me.
2) Current Hassie lenses are 50mm, 80mm and 150mm. What are the large format equivalent of these?
3) Darkslides. How much of a hassle are they?
4) Any ideas on what I'd get for my Hassie stuff?
5) What would a used 45S cost? I've just seen a post from last October where a member couldn't shift one. Do I ever wish I'd seen it!

This is what I've got. What could I get?

Hasselblad 501CM with acute matt screen and A12
80mm CB lens
50mm CF Floating Element
150mm CF lens

A16 back
A12V back. A portrait back. Very rare to find.
PM5 viewfinder

3 x UV filters

PolaPlus polaroid back

A custom made 60mm wide angle bay adaptor by Lee Filters.

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Re: Thinking of jumping into LF

Post by dave_whatever » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:40 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

50/80/150mm on a blad should be roughly equivalent to 90/150/300mm on 4x5.

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Re: Thinking of jumping into LF

Post by Thingy » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:35 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Polaroid backs are available for 5x4. Fuji do an expensive PA-45 for full 5x4 images, or you could buy a smaller back, using the same (much cheaper) instant film that one uses to test MF images.

The following roll film backs are available for 5x4's with universal backs: 6x7cm, 6x9cm, 6x12cm. They are very useful when a particular film you want to use (e.g. infra red) is not available in sheet form.

Dark slides with a lightproof film changing bag are easy to load and unload with practice. Start off using a sheet of film for practice purposes, in daylight, then try with your eyes closed. It soon becomes second nature. The main downside over the old QuickLoads is that unless you don't mind lugging a large number of dark slides with different films, you have to usually decide the evening before what film you are going to use. With the QuickLoad you could carry a few sheets of different films, just in case - which I find very useful in Scandinavia (Iceland in particular).
Love is an Ebony mounted with a Cooke PS945.......

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Re: Thinking of jumping into LF

Post by Joanna Carter » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:14 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

OK, you got me curious and I wondered if there was an adapter that would take a Hasselblad back on a 5x4. Well, I found this one but I think it may only work with digital backs.
Reassure yourself - stroke an Ebony

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Re: Thinking of jumping into LF

Post by Charles Twist » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:35 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

With a Sinar, there is this for the lens and this for the back. Not cheap. But solutions are out there.
Dark slides are fairly straightforward.
LF lenses will obviously offer far more movement when you expose a smaller area but probably less resolution than the Hassy lenses designed for that 6x6 image. :?:
Roll film holders are very easy to use. Just make sure they're light-tight.
Regards,
Charles

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Re: Thinking of jumping into LF

Post by Marizu » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:40 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

If you go the route of trying to replace the 6x6 camera with a 5x4 and roll film then you will need a super wide lens (65mm or 50mm?).
It can be difficult to tease many movements out of 5x4 cameras with one of these attached due to the crunched together standards. This is one reason why the (digital MF) Sinar P3 is much smaller than the 5x4 capable P2.

I think that you would benefit hugely from spending some time with somebody that shoots LF so that you can see some of these issues/compromises.

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Re: Thinking of jumping into LF

Post by zoikes » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:51 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi

Based on my experience as an LF newbie, i would support the suggestion to start with a secondhand / cheaper camera. I have a S/H shen hao folder that has all the movements i need, plus some. This + a 150mm lens was < £400.

I can see the temptation to get it right first time, but using the shen hao has taught me which movements and focal lengths I need for the way i work. A Titan XL is on the way!

As you love the Hasselblad so much, think twice before selling it. LF may not suit you, and you can always sell it later to upgrade to your 45SU / technikarden or whatever. I have periodic internal battles about larger formats (it would have to be 11x14 :D which means byebye leica M7), but I am resisting so far...

Ian

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Re: Thinking of jumping into LF

Post by Andrew Plume » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:13 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Julian you said in your initial post:-


".....I would love something like an Ebony 45S....."


I'm sure that it's a beautiful Camera but if one is ever in any doubt whether LF is for them, it's far better to start with a used model - imo you should not sell your Hassy or at least not at this stage


".....Lastly, film stocks worry me on LF....",

in my view and as subsequently echoed on here, this please shouldn't detract you............there would always be the mf roll film back option if it ever came to that....


Marizu added:-


"You can get a pre-loved camera and lens from the auction site for £300. It might be a technical camera like the MPP or it might be a monorail. This would depend upon your needs........."


Exactly, dead right too - to me, the way to go would be to pick up a cheap Monorail - they may not look sexy but they should have all feasible movements and if you do decide that that's for you, try and pick up a 'bag bellows' as well, which will enable you to use wide angle short focal length lenses


Charles said:-


"The other consideration in all this is roll-film backs which not all cameras accept gracefully...."


Julian, you need to be acutely concious of this, otherwise you may end up with a rf back that you cannot slot in place


yes the 6x17 backs will certainly be great for landscape stuff but they can be pricey - there's one 'fs' on here at the moment - the 6x17 backs that are manufactured by the excellent Keith Canham can be used with the similarly excellent cameras produced by Mike Walker but there again you will have to match the model, Walker cameras only infrequently turn up for sale and are potentially likely to be above your (present budget)


and also said:-


"......Start with something which covers most of your needs and which you know you can sell on easily (ie don't buy something battered because it's cheap)..."


which perfectly sums it (all) up


Julian, you have since said:-


"Is it possible on a 4x5 camera to use 120 roll film as 6x6? From what I've seen, it appears so. What are my options? My thinking is that if this were indeed possible, I would have camera movements available to me"


these are very valid points - here's my few Euros worth (as the Euro bailout issue is currently topical):-

1. yes, you certainly can;
2. there are 6x6 roll fim backs around but the 6x7 and 6x9 versions are I believe more common;
3. you could buy a 6x7 back and crop;
4. there is far more film available in the 120 size than in sheet film and by that I mean stuff like Pan F and part of the Fuji line, which isn't produced in sheet film size;
5. from time to time, I've done 120 with a 4x5, I also have a few 'dedicated' mf cameras, the ability to do 120 with a 4x5 camera has always appealled to me, solely because of the movements;
6. having the option to use a 4x5 is great but there's the flip side in that you can't just pick it up and run with it;
7. back to Pan F, it's a great film, why not do enlargements?;
8. the option that's open to you might be to start with a rf back before you start to work with sheet film and double dark slides; and
9. there's also the point (and also mentioned) that you have to be careful what lens you use in that it may well cover 4x5 but vignettes on roll film - I used to own a very sharp 150mm Schneider apo-symmar - fantastic for 4x5 but for whatever reason it vignetted on 120 film


good luck - let us know what you decide on

regards

andrew

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Re: Thinking of jumping into LF

Post by Julian Elliott » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:28 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Amazing stuff :)

Thanks for all the info folks. I'm still in a quandary as to what I should do.

In all honesty, I'm wondering on my original plan of a Shen Hao and a 90mm lens as a starter point. I could easily raise the cash for this with some un-needed stuff at home.

Can't remember if I asked this. What movements do I "really" need for landscapes. That is my main forté and although I love doing architectural stuff, I could see the LF being used more for landscapes.

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Re: Thinking of jumping into LF

Post by joolsb » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:08 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

What movements do I "really" need for landscapes.
As a bare minimum, front tilt and front rise/fall. Rear tilt is useful for changing perspective but isn't essential. Swing, lateral shift and rear rise are strictly nice-to-haves.

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Re: Thinking of jumping into LF

Post by Charles Twist » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:27 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I would say you don't really need rear movements although they are nice and even almost necessary when your image circle is very small relative to the film size. So front movements, for landscape photography, I would have 30mm of drop (ie rise: -30mm); tilt: 20° forward, 10° backward; and I would argue for swing because it helps to focus on a transverse slope, so +/-15°. Obviously more is often better but that's your minimum-according-to-Charles :wink: .
The other thing to consider is folder versus non-folder - impacts on room in the bag. The clam shell design of the Toyo 45A protected the bellows in transport. The Linhof TK45 exposes the bellows to bad treatment.
You'll also want to think metal versus wood. There is no right and wrong here. I prefer metal, many don't. Questions of weight and rigidity. Also a matter of expansion: wood with water and metal with heat. Once expanded, the movements can stick a lot or completely; Ebony users often complain of having to loosen some screws somewhere. Walker's ABS cameras avoid those problems entirely.
Happy thinking!
Charles

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Re: Thinking of jumping into LF

Post by Joanna Carter » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:52 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Charles Twist wrote:Ebony users often complain of having to loosen some screws somewhere.
Some would say the loosest screw can often be found under the dark cloth 8) :lol:
Reassure yourself - stroke an Ebony

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