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Following on from a conversation with Charles and his follow-up posting in the Classified section - "Calling All Vultures" I would like to pose a question to all out there on the forum ... "Are you good enough?". Let me expand - I'm having a hard time justifying the proposed cash outlay needed to equip me for the digital age. I've taken excellent advice (thanks Jo!) on the equipment required to get me started but I've hit a massive stumbling block. I can't seem to be able to justify shelling out £1400 or so on a scanner/printer/ink flow system/Photoshop when to be honest I really don't think I'm "good" enough to warrant such an outlay. During the recent spell of bad weather I've taken stock of the equipment I own and the number of opportunities I've had to actually use it. This lack of use is down to a mighty large workload courtesy of my job and naff weather! I've also asked myself the questions, "Is my photography good enough to warrant X thousands of £s worth of gear?" and "If not why am I considering spending another £1400 on scanner etc?" ... hmm a real problem I've also taken this opportunity to ask myself "Why I'm interested in LF photography?". I've had excellent reviews/comments about my photography over the years and I've sold many prints. I had a 4-page article in AP back in 1999 which also said nice things. But I've never been happy/confident in showing my photos - that's not the reason I take photos. I've always seen photography as a very personal "thing" and have been happy with the satisfaction I get from the whole process - never wanted/needed feedback! The point I think I'm making is that I'm actually staring to question if I should carry on?
I seem to have reached a plateau where time/work does not allow me the opportunities to pursue my interest. In fact I wince at the thought of how on earth will I find time to actually learn to use the scanner/printer/photoshop combination when I don't have enough hours in the day to actually go out and take photos
I sit here "stroking" the old Ebony thinking to myself ... what a waste of gear!
Anyone else felt/thought the same?
Any answer/suggestions?
Oh, btw, can't afford to give up work
Paul

Dear Paul,
I can really empathise with how you are feeling. I, and I suspect many others, have been through such periods of self doubt.
Firstly, I am sure that one's 'creative' flow (if that's not too a pretentious word to use), ebbs and flows. In my professional (as a retired GP) and personal experience, I have found that it often reflects one's personal circumstances at the time, whether it's worry over family, finances, personal relationships etc, etc, or just plain fatigue/exhaustion from excess work, stress at work, or dissatisfaction with work. If these pile up, it's all too easy to slip into degrees of low mood/depression, charcterised by loss of interest/drive in all things, including hobbies that have previously really made you burn with enthusiasm. I don't want to sound patronising or too much like an agony aunt, but you are clearly struggling enough to motivate you to posting as you did. I would seriously urge you to look very closely at your work and life style, and try to find ways of controlling the forces that you are to a certain extent finding somewhat overwhelming at present. Perhaps you really do need to take a break from photography at present, to give yourself room to take a breath in your very busy life.
Conversely, it may be that the process of your photography has become a little stagnant - I do not refer to your images, since I have seen very few of them. I have found that embracing the digital technology has been very stimulating in my own work, allowing much more control of my images, and the ability to put in much more of my own emotions in my pictures. BUT without doubt it will necessitate a time committment to achieve a standard with which you are personally happy, and it will be an ongoing drain on finances, but this is the case with all types of photography. But when you have satisfied yourself as to your digital skills the photographic world is your oyster!
Finally, like you, I have always shied away from trying to get my work seen by others, except perhaps in the context of camera club competitions. I quite quickly came to the conclusion that feedback from ths sort of scenario was very limited, unhelpful, or plainly strangling any personal or individual development. I have kidded myself that I was making images for my own satisfaction, and I was not concerned what others thought. This was I think just rationalising my lack of confidence. I am now convinced that one cannot enjoy photography in a vacuum. You have to share your images with others, accept the criticisms as well as compliments, and sift out the most constructive things that will help you to shape your own personal style.
I have been lucky enough to be invited to join a small group of camera club members when we have visited other local clubs to show off our work. I much enjoyed this and found it a real stimulus to spread my wings a little. It especially forced me for the first time to produce work at what I hoped was a reasonable standard.Too many of my images had sat on my computer after working hard to shape them, without seeing the light of day.
I am in the process of producing a portfolio for an APRS attempt, and am thinking of organising a website to display or even to try to sell my work. I am thinking about producing a small book, and even aproaching some local organisation with a view to an exhibition
I have to be honest and say that this increased involvement in my hobby has to a great extent been enabled by my final full retirement in May of last year, an option not open to you as yet!
Hang on in there, Paul. The disillusionment will pass, and you will find the buzz from your photography will burn even brighter for having been through how you feel just now.
John Fontana

Now look here my young man; it is due to your enthusiasm and organisation of the first LF workshop, that Helen and I have both managed to spend severeal thousands of squid on these lovely strokeable pieces of wood

In answer to your question; occasionally I am good enough, sometimes I am downright brilliant but most of the time I am frustrated that I can't spend more time taking my pet log for a walk and seeing more of the world through its eye. This may be down to pressure of work or the weather but, when the planets align and the clouds part, there is nothing, I repeat nothing, to compare with having the wherewithall to go out and produce images of stunning quality (unless I get it wrong ) that I could only ever dream of until you introduced me to "the greater thing".

Unfortunately, you have to face up to the fact that photographers are born but only very rarely created. It is evident from what I have seen of your work that you will always have a need to express yourself in photographic images, as will I and many others in this forum.

The pain of parting with, yet more, money to enter the digital age is very real, especially if one has already spent out on analogue printing and gotten oneself hooked on the hypo vapours But, the truth of the matter is that, if you had gone down the digital camera route as well, you would more than likely spent a great deal more on "the next greatest thing" which is what seems to drive that market.

We started out our adult revival of interest in photography by buying Nikon D100 cameras, together with a couple of lower cost but not cheap Nikon zoom lenses. Now, 6 megapixels seemed like the ultimate in camera quality at the time but the truth is that as soon as we bought those cameras, they were out of date and the newer, higher resolution cameras hit the market.

We are then told that Nikon are not as good as Canon, but then again, Nikon are playing catchup and it all depends on whether you are wanting to take landscape or sport or wildlife or ... Deciding that our investment in Nikon lenses was sufficient incentive to stay with Nikon, we then bought the D200 to try and overcome the lack of detail in the D100, only to find that, unless we were prepared to spend £25,000 on something like a 'Blad or Mami' with PhaseOne digital back, there was absolutely no way we were ever going to approach the quality and satisfaction that we were now getting from 4x5 sheet film scanned in to the 'puter.

Unfortunately, digital photography doesn't seem to be just a matter of buying a camera and getting your piccies printed at the local supermarket. It is every bit as frustrating to get back prints that prompt you to say "I could have done better than that!" than it is to not be able to get the exposure right yourself

To the kind of photographer who contributes to this forum and others like it, the joy of photography is not simply the achievement of perfection, it is often the struggle to attain it that gives pleasure.

Helen and I have never met such a great bunch of people as those with whom we have had the pleasure to share the workshops, not to mention spurious local outings.

So, Are we good enough? No, I am not and hope that I will never be because it will mean I am above the right to ask fellow members for their honest criticism of my work, even if that does involve a certain person suggest that square is good

As to the justification of the cost of moving to a digital printing solution; this is a big question that doesn't have a simple answer. You need to take into account the number of photographs that you will take and whether getting them printed commercially would be cheaper and to your liking would be as cost effective and satisfying as doing it yourself.

The biggest problem with getting anyone else to do your printing is getting someone that you can trust to return prints that express the way you envisaged the end result. Apple came over to our place yesterday because he had a transparency that he needed printing but that had a couple of wierd blue lines in the emulsion that would have been very difficult to remove without the use of something like Photoshop.

Yes, it costs to start with; yes it costs time to learn but, in my opinion, digital printing has to be the most satisfying and cost effective means of achieving the result that I wanted and that you seem to seek.

We may never make enough money from our investments in gear to justify our present levels of expertise but photography is very rarely about making money, it is invariably about doing something creative that achieves a result with which you are satisfied and which will gain plaudits from your peers.

Ansel Adams said that if you get 12 good pictures a year, you will have had a very good year. And this is from someone who spent a lot more time doing it than you or I

There are very few people who have the right to criticise my photography; and all of those so entitled are in this group; thanks Paul

This isn't going to be a psychoanalysis bit but I understand from where you're coming.

Prior to seeing the results of others, were you happy with what you were producing in your own little world? You said you liked the process of making photographs "for your own consumption," i.e. "But I've never been happy/confident in showing my photos - that's not the reason I take photos. I've always seen photography as a very personal "thing" and have been happy with the satisfaction I get from the whole process."

I think some of the problems are caused by seeing the other side of the fence, realising it's potentially greener but then reality kicks in and you find it's a ruddy great fence in the middle to climb over... You then question the resources to get you over the fence - skill, time, money, desire etc. Unless you have a near bottomless pit of each then you're stuck on your own side. I think you have seen better but can't get there so you go into self-destruct / introverted mode as a defence.

Is it a case of jealousy for the results that can be achieved, tinged with not being able to do it for various reasons that then brings in resentment and the downward spiral starts? Secondly, the weather and season hasn't exactly helped recently so as things pick up you might be able to get out more.

I wouldn't chuck all the stuff in the bin (or at the very least in my direction) - why not go back to photography for you own personal pleasure? You've got a darkroom still? B&W printing can be satisfying. Colour trannies can be a way of doing colour for yourself without big bucks. I think the problem comes when you want to do prints - especially colour if you're a through & through B&W darkroom person - it's the multi-faceted outlay needed to get going.

Until wet paper runs out / becomes prohibitively expensive, what's wrong with being a Luddite?

You can produce some good stuff (it must have been resonable to get it published in a national mag.) - just do it in your own style rather than being dragged along kicking and screaming and forced into something with which you're uncomfortable...

PS this isn't an anti-Jo post as might be thought. I saw how "easy" some of it was last night and how she can get some cracking results and get round problems I wouldn't be able to sort with non-digital. For me it's as they say about the Americans converting from imperial measurement "dragged to metric inch by inch" I still hope I've a few decent wet prints still left in me...

Only three replies and we're getting up to war & peace length...

Firstly, thanks for all the advice/suggestions

I think my biggest "problem" is that I question the validity of my photographs in the context of "what am I going to do with this stack of prints". I no longer have a darkroom and very little chance of getting one up and running again. I have seen some wonderful work from members of this group that have spurred me on (and I'm sure many others like me). But I felt I was trying to justify (to myself) the cost of entering the digital age vs what will I do with my photos. I'm not interested/haven't got time for membership of a local camera club. I agree with John, I need to get my photos seen/admired/criticised/chucked in the bin .
Ive just had an interesting/uplifting chat with Jo (thanks again) and the answer has been staring me in my face ... skip the printer part of the workflow and go straight to a web site (my very own!). So that's my plan! Doom and gloom over (fingers crossed) and I'm ordering a scanner tomorrow! Look out cyberspace ... here I come

Thanks again. Paul

So there isn't an Ebony and bits going free?

Hey Paul, I am going through this a little myself, though just the new printer bit, as mine just died.
I have been toying with the idea of sending away for printing, but have to admit I have come back round to shelling out for a printer as in the end I enjoy doing it all myself.

I have had some stuff printed by Pro Am Imaging, Fuji Crystal lustre or gloss, very nice and very cheap, like £1 for a 12x15! the workflow id=s a litle painful but the prints are great.

http://www.proamimaging.com/index.html

Worth a look?

Gari

I can sympathise with a great deal of Paul's quandries, sadly I don't have a magic answer, I think that's subjective and each must find out their own answer.

I'm guilty of hardly ever going outside and taking photos, a full time job coupled with a 3 hour/day commute leaves me with so little time and energy, I barely want to get out of bed at weekends, let alone out with the camera I sit there and look at all the gear I've amassed and think "Is this a waste of money?", "Am I fooling myself?". Then I remember something a friend said to me. He observed on a day out, when I was taking pictures, I totally changed. I was in a great deal of pain that day from an injury, but he pointed out once I'd started taking photos, I had quit bellyaching about it, and not mentioned it since. He was right, I was enjoying what I was doing so much, everything else disappeared, I was away with the fairies and nothing else mattered, even the pain had gone ( it came back of course! ). That's when I decided if I used all that gear only once in a year, it was worth it. I don't care if anybody else sees the resulting photographs, I enjoyed making them, that was enough. As it happens, much like Paul reports, other people seem to quite like them too, friends and family are encouraging, and entering the competitions at my local photography club is enjoyable, and results in often very useful feedback.

I left photography once, when I was not in a position to afford it, I came back to it when digital started to "come of age" and photography would therefore be more affordable! Ha!. Ironically, after three digital SLRs I eventually ended up back with film and a camera who's design has changed very little in 170 years. Go figure. I think those who've gone as far as finding LF will always have photography in their blood, and will always come back to it.

I'm guilty of spending silly amounts of money (at least for me!) on photography in the last 6 years or so since I got back into it, quite probably more than I needed to, I've definitely indulged my hobby, but I don't regret it though, and don't apologise for it. I've suffered all kinds of ribbing over the stuff I've bought ( I've never lived down the "you paid £20 for a piece of Tupperware", a Sto-Fen flash diffuser ), but I still don't care. I get a great deal of enjoyment from them, this is my hobby, it gives me pleasure, I am not depriving anyone of anything by having them, so where's the harm? Working full-time means you can't indulge your hobby with the time you'd like, then indulging it with a bit of money to help you get more from the time you can invest, is money well spent as far as I'm concerned.

I once ribbed a friend for buying something for his online computer game which cost over £100. I pointed out to him that he'd paid a large some of money for something which didn't really even exist. He pointed out that it was his hobby, he enjoyed it, and in fact it was far cheaper than the camera I'd recently bought, and that he'd gotten more enjoyment and use from it than I had from my camera. I had to concede, he was right. At the end of the day, we all go in a hole in the ground, enjoy it while you can, you can't take it with you!

Paul, I hope you've realised, after reading all of the above, that you were asking the wrong question.

A website is a very good idea, and an 'adequate' scanner will get them up there. You'll be seen, you'll have influence, and you'll generate dialogue of all kinds. No matter if personal satisfaction seems paramount, 'showing' makes a difference.

You'll also have the option of selling digital files and letting folks pay for their own darn paper and ink!

gari wrote:I have had some stuff printed by Pro Am Imaging, Fuji Crystal lustre or gloss, very nice and very cheap, like £1 for a 12x15! the workflow id=s a litle painful but the prints are great.

Gari, As this post has sparked some very interesting and useful information about printer resolutions, etc, I have separated out this branch of the conversation into a new topic entitled "Sending files for printing" viewtopic.php?t=313

Go for it, Paul, I say!

Well Paul, as I started you on the slippery slope, I suppose I should say a few words. First of all, you've obviously got a great bunch of friends here, so you wouldn't want to give up over a whim. With the group you founded, you'll have plenty of opportunities to get out and about. Heck! we even started a projects page, so that people can find the time in their own time, without having to commit to a workshop weekend. There must be a few icons in south Wales; what are you waiting for? I am sure your family can let you out of the house at silly hour once a month. It's good to be out by oneself and contemplate the world beyond home. It's a break from the daily grind, which you sound like you need.
As for scanning and printing, I agree with your decision. But then I would as that is what I did. BTW, I only got a cheap scanner for my web stuff. It's not good enough for printing, but it was cheap. Surely you can afford £150 to be one of the group. The folk on this list will be happy to advise on DIY websites - just ask.
I think though that you raise another interesting issue. With B&W, you are left with a negative, which I for one find very hard to appreciate. With colour, at least there is the option of positive transparencies, which are very enjoyable in their own right, without the need for printing. It might be worth getting one or two of your B&W negs printed every now and again. I find that if I send the slide to BPD with a lo-res file of the picture as I would like it to appear, they can usually return something pretty damned close. You can't argue for £7.50. I don't do it often, and for a cost of £50 per annum, I am a happy bunny. Much cheaper than a printer. I'll bring some examples on Saturday (if I don't forget).
It gets easier once you get going. As you said to me when I was in a rut, keep your chin up.
All the best,
Charles
PS do you attach white cat fur to your Ebony before sitting down to stroke it?