Sending files for printing

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Post by Joanna Carter » Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:50 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

gari wrote:I have had some stuff printed by Pro Am Imaging ... Worth a look?
Hmm, I just took a quick look at their website and I must say that certain things would make me nervous of their skill levels.

Having to send a file at 402dpi is a very unusual resolution, as is requiring you to convert your file to their Agfa printer profile. The normal and more correct expectation is that the resolution should be either 240 or 300dpi and that no printer profile be embedded. Contrary to what they say, you should never edit an image with a printer profile as your working colour space. The best working profile is usually ProPhotoRGB. Then the printer dialog usually asks you to specify the printer profile which will be used to print without having to assign or convert the image.

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Post by gari » Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:58 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I spoke from what I am looking at in front of me, the maths and theorising I leave to others.

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Post by DJ » Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:18 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Joanna Carter wrote:Having to send a file at 402dpi is a very unusual resolution
Depends on the native resolution of the printer, although I have to admit, 402 is one I've not come across before. I know there's a lightjet type printer which has a native res of 305 which is quite odd. Epson's are 360 or 720ppi, Canon and HP different again. All depends on the screening algorithm. Do they say what the printer is?
Joana Carter wrote:as is requiring you to convert your file to their Agfa printer profile.
It's good that they provide it, allowing you to soft-proof and optimise your image for their printer, however, if they're advocating using it as a working space, erm, no, I totally agree, that's a bad idea...

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Post by gari » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:43 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

The printer is a Frontier, the native res is 402dpi.

The download is the frontiers profile, not a workspace. You work in whatever workspace you use, when the files are ready for printing you "convert to profile", then save the copy/s as jpegs and burn to CD.

As DJ writes, this allows for soft proofing etc.

The workflow is a little involved, this is reflected in the price though.
The fact that you do all the work means they simply load the cd and hit "print" ,hence the cost, or lack of.
Send some images off to see for yourselves, its cheap enough to check it out. There return is about 2-3 days if I recall correctly.

Gari
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Post by Joanna Carter » Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:14 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

No matter what the printer is, that should not affect the file resolution. I use an Epson R2400 which has "native" resolutions up to 5760dpi, but I don't have to change the resolution of my pictures to print to that. I use 240dpi at all times and the printer driver takes care of any conversion. Unless you are sending a TIFF file for outputting to a Postscript device, normal printers do not need the same resolution as the editing program. But this Agfa device appears to be a mini lab, primarily designed for on- the-spot dev and print, so I guess anything could happen there 8)

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Post by Apple » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:23 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

gari wrote:Hey Paul, I am going through this a little myself, though just the new printer bit, as mine just died.
Gari,

I don't know whether this may hep but someone at our club bought an A3 / A3+ printer a few weeks back and then has found he's won another one of a similar quality in some online competition etc. He's asked me if I know of anyone wanting one - unfortunately, I don'k know which models he has but I can ask...

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Post by DJ » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:35 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Sorry, I was a little unclear about what I meant by "native" resolution. I was referring more to the input resolution than the output resolution, which of course are different things.

Output resolution is measured in DPI, i.e. a printer has an output resolution of say 1440, or 2880, or 5760 dpi, which relates to ink dots.

Input resolution is measure in PPI, which is of course pixels per inch. The two are often used interchangeably which is not technically correct.

The "native" resolution I was referring to was the driver resolution, something many people are not aware of which leads to a some common misconceptions. Printer drivers are essentially a RIP, they convert the pixels to ink dots, with what is termed a "screening" algorithm. Screening algorithms are complex things, with dithering and dot gain and many other things to be taken into consideration. To write a driver with a screening algorithm which worked from any arbitrary input resolution would be prohibitively expensive and time consuming for manufacturers who are focused on speed to market and profit, so they don't, they work from one or two fixed resolutions. These are the driver's "native" resolutions. For example, my old Epson 2100 had two native resolutions, if I printed at 2880dpi, the internal resolution is 720ppi. If I printed at any other resolution, it is 360ppi. I believe the more modern Epsons ( 5760dpi ) all use 720ppi, and Canon printers 600ppi.

What a printer driver does, when it receives an image which is not in it's native resolution, is to immediately interpolate it so that it IS in the correct resolution. Then it will feed it through the screening algorithm. Knowing that the driver does this, is the key, as this allows you to perform this interpolation yourself, with a method of your choosing, rather than let the driver do it with a method almost certainly optimised for speed rather than quality. I understand a lot of drivers use "nearest neighbour" to interpolate. By doing it yourself with Photoshop and Bicubic or Lanczos, or a plugin like Genuine Fractals, you can move the emphasis to quality. This also allows you to do any print sharpening at the actual print resolution, rather than have that sharpening muddied by interpolation in the driver.

You will often hear people say that they have printed something at say 300ppi, and again at 360ppi, and they can't really see any difference. Now you know why, because they were in fact both printed at 360ppi ( or whatever the driver's native resolution is ). The only difference they're seeing is interpolation artefacting from the different methods. This is confirmed by talks with Epson's staff and other developers, and the developer manuals for some of these printers. I've only really looked into this for Epson printers since that's what I use, I've not looked into the Canon and HP ones much, I'm not very keen on them personally.

Another misconception is in working out a relation to ppi-dpi. A common mistake is to divide the number of inks by the dpi, to work out the ppi. e.g. 1440dpi % 6inks = 240ppi. That's exactly what I did when I first started in digital printing, but apparently isn't right. This assumes the printer lays down the ink dots in a line, which is often not the case. The Epson 2100 for example ( and other similar printers ) uses a 4/2 grid of dots for each pixel.

I'm sure many of you knew this, and I don't mean to teach anyone to suck eggs, but I thought it might be of interest to some. :) Is it nit-picking? Can you really see that much difference? You be the judge! Now you know, you can do your own tests. :P For me personally, interpolating the image for printing is no big problem, so I always do it. It doesn't cost any more, it won't use more ink, it puts pretty much the same number of ink dots on the paper, it just means that less of them were "invented" by an algorithm and means I fed the printer as much information as it can take, and have the optimum output quality. I consider the term "fine art" to mean that every part of the process has been controlled to produce the best result, nothing left to chance, and that's what I'm going to aim for. Maybe I won't hit it, but I'll learn about all this stuff along the way, and that's a big part of it for me, I enjoy this stuff, sad as that may seem :P

Actually, all this techo babbly has probably made Paul even more apprehensive about digital printing... sorry Paul! It's really not that bad, there's plenty of help available, and having the ability to make prints yourself on demand that are repeatable and consistent, is a very nice ability. :)

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Post by Joanna Carter » Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:58 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

DJ, don't apologise for your post, it is something that I hadn't considered and is well worth discussing. I, for one am going to have to try and digest what you have said and see if I have to modify my workflow.

Can I just ask; on an Epson R2400, printing at 5760dpi, are you saying that I could get better results redefining the resolution of an image from 240dpi to 720dpi? I certainly haven't seen any lack of clarity sending 240dpi images straight to the printer and am concerned that raising the resolution on some of my larger prints would make for a very large file, nine times times as large as the original. Windows seems to impose a maximum physical pixel size on printer drivers and I know that Photoshop imposes a 30,000pixel dimension limit.

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Post by Joanna Carter » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:51 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I have just come across a site that should really fry a few brain cells :lol:

http://www.scantips.com discusses more pixels and dots than you can shake a stick at. There is a section dedicated to printing resolutions that seems to bear out my postulation that you edit your image at either 240 or 300dpi(ppi) and then just send it to the printer.

There really isn't any relationship between the image resolution and the printer resolution and the printer driver is having to determine which mix of (on an EpsonR2400) eight colours to provide for each pixel of the image, bearing in mind that a printed "pixel" is not going to be eight dots square.

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Post by alangolding » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:27 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I found the scan tips site last year when looking to see what would be an acceptable scanner for 5 x 4 Velvia. I think there is also a book bublished by the chap who runs the site. I must admit that a lot of what I read went over my head at that time. However I am still left with the question what scanners on the market at present will do justice to 5 x 4.
I was going to invest in the Epson 750 (?) with the glass plate but have not yet done so and continue to send my film to the pro lab. They have an Imacon which works very well. Is anyone using the new Epson and can they confirm that it is up to the standard required.

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Post by keffs » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:46 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Joanna Carter wrote:....There is a section dedicated to printing resolutions that seems to bear out my postulation that you edit your image at either 240 or 300dpi(ppi) and then just send it to the printer....
The resolution that you edit your image at is an irrelevance. It makes no difference at all to the image. It is only when you come to output that it is relevant. It is another aspect to the "72dpi for web images" myth that a lot of people try to perpetuate.

Also the general use of terms causes confusion. A printer prints at dpi, and is a printer specific factor. At output, an image is printed at a resolution measured in ppi, or a size measured in linear units (inches, mm, etc.), mathematically connected by the image size in pixels.

I would also agree that a company that requires that images be converted to printer profiles does sound a little dodgy. It does suggest that they do not regularily profile there printer/ink/paper combinations, which must be a requirement for a proper professional service. There is no problem providing a profile for soft-proofing, but the image does not have to be converted to do this.

It might make the process more foolproof for themselves, but it does also suggets that there customers are not really "professionals", but this is a common "sales technique" (aka con.) to claim that they offer a professional service.

Steve

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Post by keffs » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:50 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

alangolding wrote:...I was going to invest in the Epson 750 (?) with the glass plate but have not yet done so and continue to send my film to the pro lab. They have an Imacon which works very well. Is anyone using the new Epson and can they confirm that it is up to the standard required.
I don't have one, but from reading various reviews, I don't think it is as good as an Imacon, but then again for the price, it is the best there is for 5x4. I would (I am) hold of a short while, as Microtek should be shortly launching a new scanner for LF. I would not expect and major improvement in quality over the Epson, but it might be a little better.

Steve

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Post by DJ » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:11 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I'm afraid the guy from the Scantips website has fallen into the same trap many stumble into. He's using DPI and PPI interchangeably, although he does understand the concept of PPI, but he has totally overlooked what the printer driver actually does, and doesn't seem to understand or consider the effects of interpolation. :?

PPI is to all intents and purposes, totally irrelevant, except when printing. For the purposes of editing and adjusting your images, forget about it, it's not important. There's no such thing as a working PPI, you can arbitrarily change it as you please on a whim, it won't make a whit of difference to your digital file ( unless you have the "Resample" box ticked in Photoshop, then it will interpolate the image! ). Basically, PPI is just a setting, and is only used by the printer driver to determine if the image needs resampling or not. What you are doing by adjusting the PPI setting, is telling the printer driver how much of the image you want it to invent with a scaling algorithm. That's all.

Example. Load up Photoshop or your similar program, create an image, 8"x10" at let's say 360ppi. An image at 8x10 @ 360ppi = 2880x3600 pixels. Now, in the Image Size menu option, change the PPI to 240 ( without resampling it ). Your image is still 2880x3600 pixels, but it's now 12"x15" when printed. The image is unchanged, all you've changed is the PPI "setting" which tells the driver how to interpret this image when sent to the printer. When it's printed 12"x15" the ink dots aren't going to be further apart, they're going to be the same as the 8"x10", the driver will have just "filled in the gaps". It doesn't do this in the ink stage, it uses the same screening algorithm regardless, it does it in the pixel stage, as this is a cheap and easy way to do it. Writing new screening algorithms for each PPI would be prohibitive.

The printer driver has a "raster" resolution, which is set depending on the DPI resolution you select. For example, the Epson 2400 has a raster resolution of 720ppi in all modes except draft mode, where it's 360ppi. This means the driver will convert one pixel into a series of ink dots, reading data at 720ppi. If you provided it with an image less than 720ppi, it will interpolate the image to 720 ppi, and then send it through it's raster engine. If you have the ability to provide the driver with 720ppi of data for the size of print required, it has no need to interpolate it. This means any print sharpening is unaffected by scaling, and if the image has been interpolating by you, it can be done with an algorithm focused on quality as opposed to speed. In these cases, the differences will not be huge, what you will see is two images both printed at 720ppi, the difference you will see is in interpolation methods, and possibly un-tampered sharpening if you chose to do that.

To be honest, most of the debate and controversy around getting the right PPI revolves around "upscaling" lower resolution images to maximise the quality. We as a group are somewhat different in that we have bags of source data to start with :D I regularly have to downscale my images to fit on an A2 page :shock: If you have the ability to provide the printer with 720ppi of original data, that's better than having the driver invent it for you.

Mike Chaney who writes the Qimage software has a small portion of his website dedicated to this subject :

http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage/quality/

My workflow follows the "Scan once, print many" philosophy. That is, scan at the highest resolution you're likely to ever need, and keep that as your archive. If you need to print smaller, which will most often be the case, downsample the image to the required size, sharpen, and print. Your images will usually gain slightly in sharpness by downsampling, you won't lose anything. Yes this means your original files will be big, my 16 bit 5x4 trannie scans are nearly 1gb each, that's without any layers! That equates to 170 megapixels. The price of high resolution images... but at least I won't have to scan the blasted things again.

In real terms ( as long as you're close and not using really low-res images ) what you will notice in the actual prints are smoother graduations, less banding, slightly finer detail, slightly sharper appearing prints. The difference is not going to be night and day, but it will be noticeable.

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Post by Joanna Carter » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:02 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

OK DJ, now I've got two differing points of view on this so I am going to have to spend my evening testing this stuff out :roll: . I'll report my findings later.

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Post by keffs » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:38 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

DJ wrote:.....The printer driver has a "raster" resolution, which is set depending on the DPI resolution you select. For example, the Epson 2400 has a raster resolution of 720ppi in all modes except draft mode, where it's 360ppi. This means the driver will convert one pixel into a series of ink dots, reading data at 720ppi.i....
DJ,

Whilst you agree with me about the irrelevance of image resolution until printing, it appears that you have fallen into the trap of using dpi and ppi interchangeably. The figures that you have quoted above are dpi values, not ppi. A printers output resolution is measured in dpi. ppi is an attribute of a printed image, not a printer. However, I do think we are diverging a little from the original topic.

Steve

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