Still dreaming of 5x4

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Julian Elliott
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Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Julian Elliott » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:09 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Morning all

A while ago, I started hankering after a 5x4 setup. That thought hasn't gone away but I am a little further along in what I want from it.

Looking at lens length and what I use the most on my regular DSLR and Medium Format system then I'd need either a folding or non-folding field camera that would cover these focal lengths: 72mm to 250mm. This would give me great options for wide angle to short telephoto and also have nice coverage if I seek out a 6x12 back.

Although I keep looking at the Ebony45S, I'm wondering if I should think more along the lines of spending less on the box and the extra I save goes into getting the glass I want.

Thanks for any help!

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by zoikes » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:47 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi

It all depends how much money you have i suppose. Are you sure you don't need an SU...

I am no expert, but I found a second hand Shen Hao perfectly adequate while i worked out what movements I liked using. I sold it for what i paid when the Walker turned up...

For a gear tart like me, this was unusually sensible!

Ian

Julian Elliott
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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Julian Elliott » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:59 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Funny you mention Shen Hao as that is the direction I keep looking at. yes, an Ebony would be nice. Yesterday I was talking to one of the respected dealers out there and he said "yep, Ebony's are good but you can get something decent for a lot less".

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by dave_whatever » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:28 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

One thing to remember is shooting large format isn't just a scaled-up facsimile of shooting digital or MF. So don't get too hung up focal length equivalencies. Just get something that does the 90-210 range ok and see how you go. LF cameras are always a trade off of useability/weight/presision/flexibility/cost, so don't try to spread yourself too thinly unless you've got unlimited cash.

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Julian Elliott » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:32 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

This is why I've still been considering my options. Looking at various things and how everything would come together.

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by vanman » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:50 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

You're in the right place to ask about Ebonies. They sniff them and they cuddle them, don't know if they ever take them out of the display cases that you have to store them in and actually use the things.
The Wista 45DX is a nice camera at a sensible price. I've had mine for about 12 years now and I've used an SA 65mm lens on it but it was a heck of a squeeze, life might be easier using a recessed lens board with the 72mm. LF is funny though when I bought the 65mm lens I thought that I couldn't live without one but in reality I hardly ever used it and sold it in the end. I do use my 90mm SA from time to time but it only works on my Wista. I also use a Burke & James 5x7 (with a 4x5 reducing back) and a 1926 Ansco (with similar backs) and the bellows just don't squeeze up enough for 90mm so bearing in mind that you might want to go bigger (with reducing backs) at some time I'd look again at your choice of cameras. People who I've spoken to who have Shen Hao cameras seem to really like them but for looks I like rosewood or mahogany and brass. The crappy grey B&J is just so practical though.
Vanman.

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Charles Twist » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:56 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I would definitely avoid Ebony at this stage. They're vastly over-priced. When you've had a go with several cameras and determined what you truly need, if that so happens to fit with Ebony's offering, go on, save up for your once-in-a-lifetime purchase. If you're like me, your needs'll change every couple years - so that could be tricky.

I was speaking to Chris Jameson and David Rees last week and one thing that came up, is that some cameras get in the way of taking the picture. Too fiddly (a subjective appreciation). My first 5x4 was a Toyo 45A which was great for landscape. It didn't have proper shift or large movements, but it was so fast and easy to set up! Anyway, I sold it. All the cameras I've had since, take longer to set up: they're less simple. That's the price they pay for being able to do more. The ultimate solution is a retinue of carriers so I have the choice of camera once I am on site. :( I would recommend going for something relatively cheap that you can sell on at little loss, then seeing what suits you in the course of meeting people and trying different subjects. For information, with my present system (a Sinar F2 camera), the lenses are many times more expensive than the body.

Good luck!
Charles

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Julian Elliott » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:34 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

The biggest problem I have is understanding what movements I would need.

I'm not up to speed on camera movements, so that is my first stumbling block.

Shen Hao cameras intrigue me a lot. They are cost effective and unlike the Ebony, I wouldn't mind if it took a knock or two.

Dave Tolcher

Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Dave Tolcher » Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:43 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi Julian, all recent LF cameras will give you the movements for landscape photography that you normally use on either front or rear standards or a combination of the two. I have owned many LF cameras while trying to find the perfect combination of technology and 'feel'. I happen to use an Ebony (a lot, it doesnt sit in a glass case) because the feel is important to me, the technology is a compromise - it isnt as good a camera as the Arca or Sinar or a TK45 from a technology pov. LF photography is sufficiently close to artisan for a lot of people who practice it that the brushes are important imvho. Hence it is a big decision whether you like wood or metal. If you like wood then Ebony is the top of the tree, if metal then Arca is probably it in field cameras (Sinar too big). Its a love hate relationship with the precision or lack of with metal or wood. Likewise a decision around folders or non folders - I couldnt get on with a folder despite them being very usable cameras with a lot of merits over non folders. Axis tilts vs base tilts is also often cited as something that you will have a marmite relationship with, I prefer axis which is possibly why I end up with a non folder Ebony. I say again, you are unlikely to be constrained by the movements available on any LF camera you can buy today so I would concentrate on some of the other aspects.

I started with an Cambo monorail but it didnt take long to realise that I couldnt carry it anywhere so it was next to useless...... I was lucky that my wife bought me an Ebony RSW45 for my 40th and that went everywhere for quite a long time until I really wanted to use a lens longer than 150mm. From there I have moved to bigger Ebony's to Arca, Gandolfi, MPP and finally back to Ebony with a 45S and finally a 45SU. There isnt one camera that ticks all the boxes that you can carry into the field. Portability is a big issue once you add in all the other stuff you end up carrying and a tripod/head combination that works well.

The most important thing is to have something that you will actually take out with you until you know what you want - a Tachihara, Shen Hao, Chamonix in new wooden cameras ( I would suggest non folder :roll: ) or Toyo 45 series / Wista DX/VX in metal or older MPP Mk Vii or Viii depending on budget... An older Wista at a push but from what I have seen the new chinese cameras are more stable and better value. These are all lightish weight packable cameras that dont need a behemoth of a tripod & head to hold them still and work with the common lens range of 90-210mm. You can get metal or wood, folding or non folding and axis / base tilt variants certainly in wood. Unless you get obsessively serious about 5x4 something in there will be all you ever need. If I didnt have an Ebony then I would lean towards Chamonix in wood from what I have seen.

To lenses, in my experience extremes are rarely used in LF cameras, I could happily use lenses between 90 and 240 for 98% of my work, with other folk I have been out with I would say that this is also fairly true. What this means is that if you are a landscape person you want a camera that usefully works with a 90mm lens (ie without a recessed board or other shenanigans) through to reasonable close focus with a 210/240mm lens - I would advise 300mm bellows as a good starting point (this is very hard to get in a non folder & a compromise you will likely have to make). Wider than 90mm is more difficult to work with because of focussing, light fall off (centre filter) & bellows compression. Longer than 240mm starts to need a substantial camera because of the bellows draw with the exception of a small number of uncommon tele lenses from Fuji & Nikon (schneider did make tele lenses in this range but most are > 20yrs old now) .

I am happy to take a call from you if you wanted to talk it through or meet up if you wanted to look at the Ebony to understand some of the practicalities of what I have suggested. PM for contact details.

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by vanman » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:55 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I'm not gonna start a silly "one is better than the other" argument so this is my last reply on this thread. Two corrections:-
1) Deardorff is the top of the tree as far as wooden cameras go.
2) The Wista DX is a wooden camera, not metal.
Luckily neither of these cameras need sniffing or cuddling.
Vanman.

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Julian Elliott » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:23 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Well, I've had a very interesting phone call with Dave (thanks!) and he started giving me some food for thought. My biggest concern was that I had to go have dinner with the missus, otherwise I'd have quite happily chatted further :D

With some of those thoughts in mind, along with how much usage is likely to come out of it, I keep edging towards Shen Hao. My next problem is finding relevant information on the damn things.

For example, which models would comfortably work with 90mm to 210mm lenses? Do any of their models allow you to stretch just that little further in each direction to a 72mm and 250mm lens?

However much I Google, I never really find straight answers :?

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Peter B » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:51 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Julian Elliott wrote:
For example, which models would comfortably work with 90mm to 210mm lenses? Do any of their models allow you to stretch just that little further in each direction to a 72mm and 250mm lens?

However much I Google, I never really find straight answers :?
Have you tried contacting Robert White? They give brief details on their website, but I'm sure they'd be able to answer specific questions you might have on the various models.

http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/shop-by-brand/shenhao.html

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by dave_whatever » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:01 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Shen Hao do a chamonix-copy the PTBwhich should be fine for 72-250mm. Not listed on robert white's website is also the XPO which is a recent design which I understand was developed at the request of a guy on the American LF forum, its a non folder that takes larger sinar boards/shutters. I seem to remember that has an impressive bellows range, and being non-folding would be faster to setup than a PTB, although heavier.

Vanman, i'd be interested to know what exactly it was in your experience using ebony cameras that you didn't like?

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Clive Gray » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:31 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

It is actually entirely possible to carry the Sinar F 5x4 cameras in a backpack the trick is in folding the standards over the rail.

Image

I find I use a 47mm and 65mm reasonably often and being able to do so on a flat board with a bag bellows is a plus.

The Shen Hao PTB is certainly light but by the time you get to a XPO which has a bellows range of 65-350 apparently you are up to 2.6Kg which is not hugely lighter than an F, just saying as you seem to be heading in the direction of the Shen Hao anyway.

The best thing you could do is try out the various cameras which granted is not the easiest thing to do as even if a dealer nominally carries a range people don't like holding stock these days.

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Julian Elliott » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:45 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Well, the XPO is certainly of interest. I had looked at Badger last night but didn't spot it at first glance.

Now it all comes down to movements. I'm pretty much 95% landscape and 5% architecture. Looking at the majority rather than the minority, what movements are generally used for landscape work?

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