Still dreaming of 5x4

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Andrew Plume
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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Andrew Plume » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:15 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Julian Elliott wrote:
Now it all comes down to movements. I'm pretty much 95% landscape and 5% architecture. Looking at the majority rather than the minority, what movements are generally used for landscape work?

well as a fair amount of people feel, movements particularly on the rear aren't necessary but it's all down to ones own personal view, imo

andrew

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by dave_whatever » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:25 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

For landscape most people want tilt, either front or rear. Front tilt means you can keep the back vertical for architecture. Back tilt doesn't eat up as much lens image circle - might be a consideration depending on what glass you're getting.

Some rise/fall on either front or back is also very useful for landscape, and almost compulsory for architecture. The lateral movements (shift and swing) I can largely live without.

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Andrew Plume » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:26 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

dave_whatever wrote:
Vanman, i'd be interested to know what exactly it was in your experience using ebony cameras that you didn't like?

Dave - I'm, slightly winging it here but knowing 'vanman' pretty well, the view would probably be that Cameras are for using and if they get a little knocked around, well so be it, while Ebony's are just that little precious imo (and this is no reflection (at all) on their owners) and as Charles has already said, are a touch over priced.............they do have a considerable following though (and I can appreciate why that is)

andrew

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Andrew Plume » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:34 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Julian Elliott wrote:................................

However much I Google, I never really find straight answers :?

well...........Google is probably not the answer - you'll find far more assistance over on the US based LFPF

what you're saying and you are by no means the first, is that you cannot (a) find everything that ticks all of your boxes; and (b) will you know, if you have, is it the right decision?

My twenty cents worth, is that you may have to go through a few Cameras to find something that you're really happy with and certainly taking a monorail out into the field isn't maybe the answer, unless you have a Mule...........Personally, I'd start with something cheap and see how you get on and buy some cheap lenses too. You may also prefer to avoid all of the hassle in loading filmholders initially, so you can easily start with, say a 6x7 roll film back. Yes, I know that's not really the size that this format is aimed at but you would still be making images with the help of a 5x4 back

good luck

andrew

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Julian Elliott » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:44 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Oddly enough Andrew, one of the things I would like to do is to use it for 6x12 thus the need for roll film.

It's almost getting to that stage whereby it's a "you have to see it to understand it" thing. Unfortunately, I am not in the best yet of being to go through cameras like a dose of salts.

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Oliver » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:06 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Julian Elliott wrote:Oddly enough Andrew, one of the things I would like to do is to use it for 6x12 thus the need for roll film.

It's almost getting to that stage whereby it's a "you have to see it to understand it" thing. Unfortunately, I am not in the best yet of being to go through cameras like a dose of salts.
With the greatest of respect, it strikes me that you don't really know what you want at all, you just have a yen to try out large-format photography. One thing that becomes clear from your posts in this thread, and that is that you seem to be looking for a set-up that will do just about everything. The fact is, you will have to compromise to a degree. My honest, friendly and well-meant advice is that you should decide exactly what it is you want to do, look for the work of others which is broadly the same, discover what kit they use (in terms of movements, focal lengths etc.), and go for something similar. Don't get hung up on makes, and don't go buying stuff that costs you so much you'll be afraid to use it. Basically, LF cameras consist of a front, a middle and a back. The front holds the lens in place, the back holds the plane of focus (and eventually the recording medium) and the middle keeps the light out. It doesn't matter one iota if those bits are made of wood or metal, or how shiny/dull the components are. What does matter is you. Get your kit, choose two lenses that will cover your basic needs, and shoot film. That way you'll become used to composing on the ground glass, and to using the movements, in a way that no amount of posts here or on a US forum will give you. Eventually you'll find your own style, and then you'll be in a much better position to become selective.
____________
Oliver's Twists (http://martynoliver.wordpress.com/about)

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Andrew Plume » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:17 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Julian Elliott wrote:Oddly enough Andrew, one of the things I would like to do is to use it for 6x12 thus the need for roll film.

It's almost getting to that stage whereby it's a "you have to see it to understand it" thing. Unfortunately, I am not in the best yet of being to go through cameras like a dose of salts.

thanks Jools

I wasn't advocating a spend spend spend policy, just that you may have to buy and sell a couple etc etc before finding what you really are happy to settle on

regards

andrew

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Andrew Plume » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:22 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Oliver wrote:
Julian Elliott wrote:Oddly enough Andrew, one of the things I would like to do is to use it for 6x12 thus the need for roll film.

It's almost getting to that stage whereby it's a "you have to see it to understand it" thing. Unfortunately, I am not in the best yet of being to go through cameras like a dose of salts.
With the greatest of respect, it strikes me that you don't really know what you want at all, you just have a yen to try out large-format photography. One thing that becomes clear from your posts in this thread, and that is that you seem to be looking for a set-up that will do just about everything. The fact is, you will have to compromise to a degree. My honest, friendly and well-meant advice is that you should decide exactly what it is you want to do, look for the work of others which is broadly the same, discover what kit they use (in terms of movements, focal lengths etc.), and go for something similar. Don't get hung up on makes, and don't go buying stuff that costs you so much you'll be afraid to use it. Basically, LF cameras consist of a front, a middle and a back. The front holds the lens in place, the back holds the plane of focus (and eventually the recording medium) and the middle keeps the light out. It doesn't matter one iota if those bits are made of wood or metal, or how shiny/dull the components are. What does matter is you. Get your kit, choose two lenses that will cover your basic needs, and shoot film. That way you'll become used to composing on the ground glass, and to using the movements, in a way that no amount of posts here or on a US forum will give you. Eventually you'll find your own style, and then you'll be in a much better position to become selective.

yep, very happy to endorse all of that

LF all too frequently is totally about compromise, it's taken me 12 years to find what I'm really happy with and that's pretty well a combination of what I can get out of five or six Cameras, 'so there's plenty of time to get fully acquainted...............'

regards

andrew

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Julian Elliott » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:23 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Oliver wrote:
Julian Elliott wrote:Oddly enough Andrew, one of the things I would like to do is to use it for 6x12 thus the need for roll film.

It's almost getting to that stage whereby it's a "you have to see it to understand it" thing. Unfortunately, I am not in the best yet of being to go through cameras like a dose of salts.
With the greatest of respect, it strikes me that you don't really know what you want at all, you just have a yen to try out large-format photography. One thing that becomes clear from your posts in this thread, and that is that you seem to be looking for a set-up that will do just about everything. The fact is, you will have to compromise to a degree. My honest, friendly and well-meant advice is that you should decide exactly what it is you want to do, look for the work of others which is broadly the same, discover what kit they use (in terms of movements, focal lengths etc.), and go for something similar. Don't get hung up on makes, and don't go buying stuff that costs you so much you'll be afraid to use it. Basically, LF cameras consist of a front, a middle and a back. The front holds the lens in place, the back holds the plane of focus (and eventually the recording medium) and the middle keeps the light out. It doesn't matter one iota if those bits are made of wood or metal, or how shiny/dull the components are. What does matter is you. Get your kit, choose two lenses that will cover your basic needs, and shoot film. That way you'll become used to composing on the ground glass, and to using the movements, in a way that no amount of posts here or on a US forum will give you. Eventually you'll find your own style, and then you'll be in a much better position to become selective.
Oliver, you are right. I don't know what I want. That is why I am asking the questions. I like to make very well informed decisions before making any purchases. I'm sure that you can see that and understand?

Everyone on here was new to LF at some point. I have the benefit of being able to tap into that in order to form an opinion.

Please tell me folks if I am not allowed to do that.

*edit* Forgot. I do love looking at the work of people like Mr Cornish. However, I wouldn't know why he uses a particular camera and for what reason. I do know that he has preferred LF for a long time. But why he uses particular camera movements etc are beyond me at the moment. That is why I asked the question "so, as someone who spends a lot of time doing landscape photography, what movements should I be looking at as a must have and why".

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Andrew Plume » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:27 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Julian Elliott wrote:
Oliver wrote:
Julian Elliott wrote:Oddly enough Andrew, one of the things I would like to do is to use it for 6x12 thus the need for roll film.

It's almost getting to that stage whereby it's a "you have to see it to understand it" thing. Unfortunately, I am not in the best yet of being to go through cameras like a dose of salts.
With the greatest of respect, it strikes me that you don't really know what you want at all, you just have a yen to try out large-format photography. One thing that becomes clear from your posts in this thread, and that is that you seem to be looking for a set-up that will do just about everything. The fact is, you will have to compromise to a degree. My honest, friendly and well-meant advice is that you should decide exactly what it is you want to do, look for the work of others which is broadly the same, discover what kit they use (in terms of movements, focal lengths etc.), and go for something similar. Don't get hung up on makes, and don't go buying stuff that costs you so much you'll be afraid to use it. Basically, LF cameras consist of a front, a middle and a back. The front holds the lens in place, the back holds the plane of focus (and eventually the recording medium) and the middle keeps the light out. It doesn't matter one iota if those bits are made of wood or metal, or how shiny/dull the components are. What does matter is you. Get your kit, choose two lenses that will cover your basic needs, and shoot film. That way you'll become used to composing on the ground glass, and to using the movements, in a way that no amount of posts here or on a US forum will give you. Eventually you'll find your own style, and then you'll be in a much better position to become selective.
Oliver, you are right. I don't know what I want. That is why I am asking the questions. I like to make very well informed decisions before making any purchases. I'm sure that you can see that and understand?

Everyone on here was new to LF at some point. I have the benefit of being able to tap into that in order to form an opinion.

Please tell me folks if I am not allowed to do that.

Yes, you're dead right, everyone is/was new to LF at some point in the past

...............fire away, they're plenty of people around who I'm sure can assist and are willing to give up some time to help

regards

andrew

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Andrew Plume » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:46 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Julian Elliott wrote:......................................
*edit* Forgot. I do love looking at the work of people like Mr Cornish. However, I wouldn't know why he uses a particular camera and for what reason. I do know that he has preferred LF for a long time. But why he uses particular camera movements etc are beyond me at the moment. That is why I asked the question "so, as someone who spends a lot of time doing landscape photography, what movements should I be looking at as a must have and why".
well, this I know from memory re JC's work............he prefers a quick set up, (it's after all about chasing the light etc etc,) so he opts or used to opt for a fixed back Ebony with a 90mm lens or possibly another lens with a different focal length (of course) - because he regularly uses that set up it means that it's an extension of his own body, in a way of thinking of course. I guess he only has to tweak the front standard and he will have exactly what he wants. With a 90mm lens on a 4x5 and stopped down everything is pretty well going to be sharp from shortly in front of him to the horizon

and you could have a look at the work of David Fokos, particularly the seascape scenes if that's what you're possibly after - I can say that DF uses an ancient 10x8 Korona (with minimum movements) and one lens for a lot of his work. I know that that's 10x8 stuff but the principal is the same

Jools - post on here or send me a pm if there are others whose work that appeals to you and if you want to find out what sort of gear that they used.................but there's always the possibility that that's going to complicate matters etc etc and fog up your way of thinking

fwiw, one of the greatest photographers, imho, namely Paul Strand went through life with just a couple of lenses, he clearly felt that he didn't need any more and he could use them for both of his chosen formats

Charles referred to the Sinar set up. Joking aside re a Mule and the weight, if you're after a Camera design that has all feasible movements, then you'll get it with a monorail, no mistake..............................

it's a damn tough call, been there so many times but a lot of it is plain practice and experimentation etc

let me know if I can help

regards

andrew

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Julian Elliott » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:57 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I'm aware of some of his kit and his high use of a 90mm lens. However, I wouldn't know why one would need movements such as front rise or back rise etc. This is my stumbling block.

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Nigels » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:16 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Julian Elliott wrote:*edit* Forgot. I do love looking at the work of people like Mr Cornish. However, I wouldn't know why he uses a particular camera and for what reason. I do know that he has preferred LF for a long time. But why he uses particular camera movements etc are beyond me at the moment. That is why I asked the question "so, as someone who spends a lot of time doing landscape photography, what movements should I be looking at as a must have and why".
With reference to mr. Cornish, I read this http://www.ebonycamera.com/rev/RSW45.Cornish.html when it appeared in OP and after getting some advice from Matt at Robert White got one in 2002. As a landscape worker who did a fair amount of backpacking this was ideal. It was amongst the fastest and lightest cameras available. I have carried it in the Alps and around Scotland and it has been rained on in Snowdonia. It served me well for 8 years before I moved up to the rear movements available with the 45SU though I can't bear to part with it as it is a Kg lighter than the SU.
Who knows how we attach ourselves to a brand but somehow I did with Ebony. Strange (or stupid) as it may sound I am not sure if I would have taken the plunge into LF had it not been for Ebony. It just seemed to tick all the boxes for me. Ten years ago nobody seemed to have a bad word for them and all the landscape pros that I admired used them. Finally I have never regretted buying an Ebony on any level.
Hope another view helps.
Regs, Nigels.
[User of Ebony 45SU + 58, 80, 150 & 270 mm Lenses, and all the essential bits]
"He wears the sweeping landscape in the crystal of his eye."

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by zoikes » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:35 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi
There are some articles here that explain movements etc.
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

But in brief, front rise allow you to look further up (e.g a building) without the converging verticals you get if you tilt the whole camera up. Front (or rear) tilt gives you a plane of focus that, instead of all being a fixed distance from the film, can be in a plane from the rock a metre from your toes, to the top of the mountain way over there.
Arguably only necessary as the depth of field is not sufficient (as it would be with a 15mm lens on a DX camera)

If you tip the lens forward, you may have to drop it a bit (front fall) to keep the axis centred on the film, if you have limited coverage. Rear tilt keeps it centred, but makes the rock look bigger.

Makes sense to me, sort of

Regarding the RSW, there is a titan XL mentioned in another thread that does the same but bounces...

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Re: Still dreaming of 5x4

Post by Marizu » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:18 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Understanding which movements they will benefit from is a problem for most people that are new to LF.
Reading about movements is nowhere near as useful as doing them.
You could easily find that the movements that you favour are not the same ones that other photographers use.

One thing that is also difficult to appreciate when you are new to LF is how all LF cameras are a compromise in one way or another.
This is why a number of people are suggesting that you buy a cheap camera with a fairly complete set of movements to get the hang of. That way, you can try things out and truly understand how they relate to YOUR photography before you drop a few grand on something that isn't ideal for you.

My favourite camera only cost £100 (more typically, they go for £200). The pictures are indistinguishable from something that costs £4k. But it is heavy :D

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