Still dreaming of 5x4

[sandeha]

In one sense, I guess you'll only know what movements you need by not having them. My first 4x5 was a Speed Graphic which cost around US$100 complete with one lens. It had everything I didn't need, (front rise and shift) and not what I needed, (swings and a practical front tilt) but it provided me with several months of learning how to handle sheet film (essential !!)

But then I had no plans to shoot architecture and was primarily interested in selective focus rather than front-to-back focus. In the end I built my own with full movements and a reversible back. This provided hours of fun, but in the end led to less LF shooting than I'd expected on account of the bulk and weight and movements I never used. After a break from LF, I recently threw some parts together (http://sandehalynch.wordpress.com/2011/12/) to give me only the movements I wanted.





My current design is flatbed (avoids the complications of a folder), single format (landscape for one, portrait for another) and concentrates on swings and tilts. Cut down on compromises and you cut down on weight. I can only suggest that for starting out any cheap LF in good condition will provide you with a route to the answers you need.

[Paul Dunning]

Hi Jools,

Experiences of an LF noob and self confessed gear junky.

Which movements?

I had an advantage here as my favourite and most used lens with the DLSR is the 24mm Tilt Shift where I'd use tilt to rotate the plane of focus for getting those extreme depth of fields we landscapers crave and vertical shift for bringing foreground elements into view while still keeping the camera level. I knew if I could do those two things with an LF camera I'd be happy, anything extra would be icing on the cake.

Horizontal shift I find useful if the composition isn't spot on and I don't want to have to reposition or rotate the camera but so far I've not found a great deal of need for it.

Which camera?

I guess I fall into the "Ebony Hugger" camp though I do treat it as a tool and not an ornament. I went MAD and got a used 45SU, there's no doubting that it's a nice camera but I'm very aware that I could get the same images with a camera costing maybe 1/5 the price.

Which lens?

My first priority was a 90mm as I knew its field of view (based on the short edge of the frame) roughly equated to the 24mm that I'm so fond of. If I could only have one lens then that's the one for me.

I've since added a 150mm, 210mm and 65mm. The 65 hasn't had much use yet due to heavy vignetting, I have a centre filter ordered which should hopefully cure this. The 150 and 210 also often stay in the bag due to my favouring the 90 but it's nice to know they are there if the need arises.

I'm sure you've thought of it but don't forget all the ancillary stuff, dark slides, changing tent, focus cloth, focusing loupe, shutter release cables, etc.

And then there's scanning, you might already be set up for this since I know you do MF film, but it's another cost and headache to be factored in.

For me personally, as indicated in another thread, metering has been a bit of a challenge but you have the advantage of already working with MF film so your all set in that respect.

When we meet at the end of March I'll have the LF camera with me, if you ask nicely I might let you stroke it
Paul.

[Julian Elliott]

When we meet at the end of March I'll have the LF camera with me, if you ask nicely I might let you stroke it
Paul.

He's such a charmer

OK, so going back to movements and targeting the landscapers on here. What do you generally use? And a curious one. For that JCB look, what is typically used?

[Marizu]

I'll volunteer front tilt for the DOF and front rise/fall to adjust the slight compositional changes that occur as a result of the front tilt.

[dave_whatever]

For landscape shots with no architectural elements (i.e. no castles or vertical trees) you can use rise/fall in combination with pointing the camera up or down to to make the foreground smaller or larger relative to the background.

Probably not the best description but you can use this to emphasise (or de-emphasise) the foreground, and can sometimes get you out of compositional problems be squeezing elements at the bottom corners out of shot.

[Susie Frith]

Hi Jools,

I've been following this thread for some time and have been wondering why/how you've got so hung up on which adjustments you will need, without having yet tried a camera out.

Just in answer to your last posting, about landscapes, three of my cameras have the following:

One (10x8 Kodak View c. 1940) has rise, a little fall, and cross on the front, and tilt and swing on the back.

The second (13x18 Zeiss Jewel B 1939) has rise, cross and tilt on the front, and an akward tilt on the back.

The third (1/2 plate Sanderson field 1907, and my favourite) has rise, fall and tilt on the front, and tilt and a small amount of swing on the back.

All three will do everything I need for landscapes, and can be focused using either the front or rear. All three are pretty old as you see, but still capable of doing sterling service.

What you will find though, is that unless you are after some fairly extreme images, you will need very little adjustment most of the time. If you are going to take photographs like those on your website, which I like, then I'd suggest that you will not need very much at all.

Susie

[Julian Elliott]

Susie, thanks for the comments on my work I'm slowly getting more and more as a freelancer and it is for this reason why I am looking at large format.

The other day when I spoke to Dave, I explained that I feel a gap is no becoming evident in my knowledge. And it is a gap that needs sorting!

Now, movements wise. Why am I getting hung up? It's that lack of knowledge that is dragging me down.

To give an analogy to something I else I do. As well as being a photographer I also play the guitar. Now, I love rock music and have both a Fender Strat and an old Jackson guitar. The Jackson has pickups that make it sound completely different to the strat.

With both guitar you can play rock. BUT if, like me, you also like heavy thrash metal then using a Fender strat just doesn't work. Both are rock guitars but when you start fine tuning things into genre then one doesn't make the grade.

Make any sense???

[hmvmanuk]

Jools,

I got into LF just over two years ago and, like you, I was hung up about the gear and getting all possible movements on the camera. Fortunately, I was on a low-ish budget so that precluded exotica. I ended up buying a used Wista DXII because I admit I like the look and feel of wooden field cameras. The Wista seemed like a well-made camera at a sensible price and I am very pleased with it and find it easy to use. The only thing I would say is that sometimes it is a bit of a pain unfolding and refolding the camera to move on to the next location - particularly if you just want to see what a shot might look like. If you think you want to work more quickly a non-folder might be better for you. Having said that, I wanted to go into LF because I liked (and still do) the idea of a slow, contemplative approach to photography, although the light waits for no man (or woman)!

I also shoot mainly landscape and pictorial subjects (not much architecture) and I worried at first that the Wista's lack of front or rear lateral shift would be a problem. In the end I've never found that I've wanted it. I usually use a bit of front tilt and swing to adjust plane of focus, and rise and fall to position the image or crop out something while keeping the camera level. Very occasionally I've used rear tilt to emphasise the foreground.

I would also recommend spending less on the camera and more on the lens(es) as these are going to be making your precious images.

Good luck!

Gavin

[Dave Tolcher]

You might like to take a look at this listing on ebay.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/cambo-45sf-4x ... 3f144f1f28

Will fill a short term need to learn very very well and at a very interesting price.

[Julian Elliott]

Thanks Dave. I might consider that. Especially as I am going to Salisbury in a few weeks time. Swindon is only up the road. Well, the time warp road as it always seems to take bloody ages!

BTW Dave. Are you around during the daytime?

[timparkin]

In my experience, Shen Hao aren't particularly 'stiff' - i.e. they don't hold particularly steady when locked down. Not a problem if there is no wind, quite a problem if there is.

I wouldn't buy any camera that had only base tilt on the front standard, it's almost unusable unless can apply tilt and focus at the same time and know exactly how tilts work. We've had people on courses come with them and the experience of teaching them has been interesting compared to other cameras.

1) Rear centre tilt or assymetric tilt - three simple instructions and people are taking photographs
2) Base tilt - some instructions and practical demonstrations and they're OK
3) front centre tilt - same as above but with a few more iterations
4) front base tilt - both clients struggled to get to grips..

I have an Ebony 45SU and a Chamonix - the Ebony is an eminently usable camera and mine has had quite a bit of use in all sorts of clement and inclement conditions including 30-40mph winds and still produced images that resolve to the limit of my 4000dpi drum scanner. if Joe has one, I can assure you it hasn't been sniffed and cuddled - it was a workhorse which probably had more 4x5 film put through it than half of the board members here put together.

The Chamonix is the best value for money large format camera on the market without doubt - works with a large range of lenses and is very solid in use and is one of the lightest 4x5 cameras on the market.

I am also quite impressed with Toyo's and Canhams..

Tim

[dave_whatever]

Tim, the comment on the front base tilt seems to match up with my brief experience of using someone elses camera with base tilt. Felt like trying to learn to drive again, only in a car where the steeringwheel operates the gearstick.

Am I right in thinking on the Chamonix the front rise and tilt are on the same control/same locking knob? Is this not a bit of a pain? I was looking at a chamonix as an option a while back but this was an offputting factor, along with the seemingly fiddly setup, and having to take the lens off to store it.

[timparkin]

Tim, the comment on the front base tilt seems to match up with my brief experience of using someone elses camera with base tilt. Felt like trying to learn to drive again, only in a car where the steeringwheel operates the gearstick.

Am I right in thinking on the Chamonix the front rise and tilt are on the same control/same locking knob? Is this not a bit of a pain? I was looking at a chamonix as an option a while back but this was an offputting factor, along with the seemingly fiddly setup, and having to take the lens off to store it.

The Chamonix control for front tilt and rise/fall is connected but when you back off enough to be able to 'pinch' tilt backward and forward, there is still more than enough tension to keep the rise/fall from changing position.

Tim

[Julian Elliott]

OK, thanks everyone for putting in their two eggs. I'll have a long hard think on a camera body.

Next thread...lenses!

[Charles Twist]

Hello Jools,
I appreciate your desire to close the thread but I've been out of the loop for a few days. A couple quick comments...

What you will find though, is that unless you are after some fairly extreme images, you will need very little adjustment most of the time. If you are going to take photographs like those on your website, which I like, then I'd suggest that you will not need very much at all.

You'll need larger movements with longer lenses in order to have the same effect. So if you're sticking with 90mm, you won't need much movement. If you go to 210mm and again want that wide angle JCB feel, then you'll need a lot more movement.

I find swing extremely useful, just to help lift the tilted focal plane to the right or left side. Not the simplest trick to explain to a beginner without a camera in front of me, but well worth having when stuck on the side of a hill.

I am also quite impressed with Toyo's and Canhams..

I never thought I would hear the day...
The Toyo 45A comes with base tilt (as does the Sinar F series): it's the camera I learnt LF on, and focussing with this system became very natural and fast. I wouldn't be too sniffy on that one: if everything else with the camera is just right, you'll learn to handle it.

Best regards,
Charles