Lenses - how to choose them?

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Julian Elliott
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Lenses - how to choose them?

Post by Julian Elliott » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:02 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

OK folks, so the amount of help received in my dreaming thread was great!

It now leads me onto lens choice. I'm not overly concerned as to what focal length I should go for but I am seeing things such as Copal etc that have me slightly confused.

Do you have to mount each lens on a board? I was taking a nose at Mr Parkins old post on how he arranged his camera bag and noticed that none were mounted just neatly placed in the bag.

Apart from things such as fungus, scratches etc what else should I be aware of?

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Re: Lenses - how to choose them?

Post by hmvmanuk » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:49 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Jools, have a read of this for starters http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses-primer/

Yes, you will need a lens board for each lens otherwise it's a pain mounting them in the field but I wouldn't worry about getting a lens wrench as mentioned in the above article. I use a pair of small watchmakers-type screwdrivers to tighten the locking ring - but just concentrate and do it slowly and carefully! Once the lenses are mounted on a board you'll rarely need to take them off again.

Cheers,

Gavin

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Re: Lenses - how to choose them?

Post by dave_whatever » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:55 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Its also worth getting a cable release for each lens and leaving them on there permanently. Nothing worse than fiddling around in pre-dawn light with numb fingers trying to screw one in.

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Re: Lenses - how to choose them?

Post by timparkin » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:10 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Julian Elliott wrote:OK folks, so the amount of help received in my dreaming thread was great!

It now leads me onto lens choice. I'm not overly concerned as to what focal length I should go for but I am seeing things such as Copal etc that have me slightly confused.

Do you have to mount each lens on a board? I was taking a nose at Mr Parkins old post on how he arranged his camera bag and noticed that none were mounted just neatly placed in the bag.

Apart from things such as fungus, scratches etc what else should I be aware of?
Hi Jools

Firstly you need a lens board for each - lens boards come in three different hole sizes, Copal 0, Copal 1 and Copal 3 (there was a Copal 2 but very rare even when it was around). Copal 0 is small and generally for wider angle or smaller aperture lenses. Copal 1 is for most lenes and Copal 3 is a large hole that is only really used for very big lenses (large aperture, long focal length for instance). Copal 0 shutters are very light, Copal 3 shutters are quite heavy. Modern lenses are nearly all have Copal shutters. However, there are lots of older types of shutter, Compur, Ilex, etc and I can't really comment on their efficacy or reliability (I've tried to stuck to Copal's)

In terms of attaching cable releases to each lens, nice idea but I tried it and ended up with a series of broken cable releases. Good cable releases have softer metal in the threaded connection so that if overstrained, they break rather than the shutter. Cheaper cable releases may not break as easily but when they do they make damage the shutter as well. I've ended up with an expensive compromise - I use short shutter cable extenders (see the Gepe extenders here - https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/car ... list&c=191). These don't seem to get damaged as easily but make it a *lot* easier to mount a shutter cable (I only keep a couple in my bag now).

Lenses are all generally pretty good quality and will all produce good results around f/32 as they are reaching a reasonable diffraction limit. Some lenses may get a 'little' soft in the corners if they don't have too much image circle. Have a look at the stats here - (http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/testing.html) Your typical desktop scanner can only resolve about 50-60 lines per mm. A drums canner can get about 75 lines per mm.

Some lenses are very sharp and one or two are sharp and also have a contrasty look that makes them *look* sharper (e.g. Rodenstock Sironar S) most mainstream lenses that are free from defect you won't be able to tell apart at sizes of 20x24" and only marginally at 30x40.

You probably want to stick to focal lengths of between 90 and 135 at the wide end. 90 can look very wide because you can work 'near/far' compositions using tilt focus and perspective looming. 90 can also look quite long as well (using a different perspective controls). Personally got rid of my 80mm lens because it was too wide for my normal work - it only got used about five times out of 300 photos. I will probably buy a wide lens again but only in order to get wide views at infinity for panoramic shots - in the meantime I can stitch two 110 shots side by side by using rear shift on my Ebony (and I've only done this a couple of times). A cheap 65mm may appear in my bag one day.

My standard lens is a 110mm - wide enough to look wide without being too 'special effect'y - I'd probably be happy with a 120mm lens too. At the wide end, it's really useful to have a lot of coverage in order to play with perspective effects.

Lens spacing is a funny one - the typical spread is 90, 150, 210 and if you go for this you will have a classic combination and a great selection of lenses (and they'll be cheaper because they are more common. You can also add a 300 on to the end of this range and keep a good spacing.

My personal lens set is now 110, 150, 200, 240, 300, 360/500 but I'll be going out with a 110, 200, 300 set if I want something lightweight. The choice of lens was influenced by the great 'Future Classics' by Kerry Thalmann - http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/future.htm hence the funny spacing (I recently bought the 200 and 300 to plug some gaps and make the lightweigh set)

Hope that helps..

Tim
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Re: Lenses - how to choose them?

Post by Julian Elliott » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:21 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Does it help? Immensely! Thanks for the advice Tim and everyone else :D

Tim, I had a quick chat with Joe Cornish at last year's Discovery Day. He did say that I should go to you if I get up and running.

Handily enough, there is a flight from Tours to Manchester starting on a regular basis this month with Ryanair. I believe you do stuff up in the peak district, which is ideal.

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Re: Lenses - how to choose them?

Post by timparkin » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:37 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Ooh - I should have added that the most common lens separation is by 40% increments - a while a go I worked out what made typical 40% increment groups. However the gap between 90 and 150 in the standard ratio is quite large (nearly 70%) and hence a lot of people buy a 135/180 /240 to add to the 90mm base (the Sironar S 135 is a beauty). This spreadsheet may help..

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0hmWWp0Z1E

The colour coding is based on weight, large coverage lenses are in bold, small coverage lenses are in italic.. I started to guess prices by looking at ebay but gave up..
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Dave Tolcher

Re: Lenses - how to choose them?

Post by Dave Tolcher » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:59 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I'm with Tim on cable releases, I used to have one on each lens then had 2 break in quick succession and nearly ruin some shooting that I had travelled miles for because I couldnt get the stump out. I now attach a cable release as part of the set-up process, take it off when I pack down and keep 2 or 3 in my bag. PITA but better than the alternative.

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Re: Lenses - how to choose them?

Post by timparkin » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:12 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Julian Elliott wrote:Does it help? Immensely! Thanks for the advice Tim and everyone else :D

Tim, I had a quick chat with Joe Cornish at last year's Discovery Day. He did say that I should go to you if I get up and running.

Handily enough, there is a flight from Tours to Manchester starting on a regular basis this month with Ryanair. I believe you do stuff up in the peak district, which is ideal.
Anytime :-)
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Re: Lenses - how to choose them?

Post by dave_whatever » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:19 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I've only had one cable release break in-lens. I took it to mean I wasn't careful when packing it. Its a shame modern shutters don't have self-timers as in most cases you could do without the cable release.

Personal preferences aside it has to be said that pragmatically certain focal lengths seem to occupy practical sweet spots where others don't, dues to lens design considerations or shutters.

For example take 150mm lenses. Most 150mm lenses for 4x5 (mainly plasmat type designs at f/5.6) have plenty of coverage, aren't too big or heavy and give you a bright image on the glass. Hence they are popular so there's a lot of them around inexpensively. Compare that with 180mm 5.6s - despite only being a touch longer they have to go in the next size of shutter up, so they end up weighing double what a 150mm weighs. Hence less popular, and fewer of them around.

In the other direction 135mm and to a greater extent 120mm lenses of the typical plasmat type design are very tight on coverage, hence less popular. Or there's the 120mm f/8s of the wideangle design, which are huge and heavy.

The 90mm f/8 lenses of the usual biogon-type design (super angulons etc) are in a similar sweet spot. Its about as short as you can go where its universally excepted you won't need a center filter for slide film (massive shifts notwithstanding), the F/8s aren't too big, you don't need an expensive fresnel/screen, and virtually all 4x5 cameras can focus a 90mm (and if you do need a centerfilter, the ubiquitous IIIb are commonly available second hand and the resultant filter thread isn't stupidly big). So again, plenty available and cheap.

Whereas you drop lower to 65 or 75 and on some cameras you're into recessed lensboards, hard to see into the corners, needing centerfilters etc etc. Longer than 90mm in the wideangle design and as mentioned above you're into big lens territory. Faster 90mms are heavy and take big filters - and their CFs are even bigger.

In short, there's a lot to be said for a 90mm and a 150 setup. Wide and a normal, its a classic combination.

There are of course lenses that break out of these standard design types (like the SSXLs, or the fuji 180mm f/9) but you have to be ready to pay the premium for them.

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Re: Lenses - how to choose them?

Post by Martin Jan Köhler » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:17 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

timparkin wrote: In terms of attaching cable releases to each lens, nice idea but I tried it and ended up with a series of broken cable releases. Good cable releases have softer metal in the threaded connection so that if overstrained, they break rather than the shutter.
Cheaper cable releases may not break as easily but when they do they make damage the shutter as well. I've ended up with an expensive compromise - I use short shutter cable extenders (see the Gepe extenders here - https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/car ... list&c=191). These don't seem to get damaged as easily but make it a *lot* easier to mount a shutter cable (I only keep a couple in my bag now).
Tim
I can really recommend the great cables of the Gebrüder Schreck: http://www.gebr-schreck.com/ESITE/
Got one for every lens, great stuff (you can also break the bulb shutter easily if you havent got or prefer not to use a T-Mode)!

Note that, if you work out landscapes in a potentially wet environment, go for the plastic version!

Best regards,
Martin

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Re: Lenses - how to choose them?

Post by timparkin » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:32 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Martin Jan Köhler wrote:
timparkin wrote: In terms of attaching cable releases to each lens, nice idea but I tried it and ended up with a series of broken cable releases. Good cable releases have softer metal in the threaded connection so that if overstrained, they break rather than the shutter.
Cheaper cable releases may not break as easily but when they do they make damage the shutter as well. I've ended up with an expensive compromise - I use short shutter cable extenders (see the Gepe extenders here - https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/car ... list&c=191). These don't seem to get damaged as easily but make it a *lot* easier to mount a shutter cable (I only keep a couple in my bag now).
Tim
I can really recommend the great cables of the Gebrüder Schreck: http://www.gebr-schreck.com/ESITE/
Got one for every lens, great stuff (you can also break the bulb shutter easily if you havent got or prefer not to use a T-Mode)!

Note that, if you work out landscapes in a potentially wet environment, go for the plastic version!

Best regards,
Martin
They look like great releases... have to order a couple now (damn!)
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Re: Lenses - how to choose them?

Post by dave_whatever » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:41 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

They look identical to the calumet deluxe model (incidentally the type I broke).

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Re: Lenses - how to choose them?

Post by Charles Twist » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:12 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

dave_whatever wrote:The 90mm f/8 lenses of the usual biogon-type design (super angulons etc) are in a similar sweet spot. Its about as short as you can go where its universally excepted you won't need a center filter for slide film (massive shifts notwithstanding), the F/8s aren't too big, you don't need an expensive fresnel/screen, and virtually all 4x5 cameras can focus a 90mm (and if you do need a centerfilter, the ubiquitous IIIb are commonly available second hand and the resultant filter thread isn't stupidly big). So again, plenty available and cheap.
Centre filters aren't necessary for a 90mm on 5x4 even with large shifts. You just need to use a standard ND grad to compensate for the fall off. Now if you're shooting with film bigger than 5x4 like 6x17, then a ND grad won't be any use, because you'll have fall-off in two directions. Then a CF is essential.

All other comments seem pretty spot on. f/32 is probably as small as you want. The link to the webpage on optimum resolution shows that f/11 to f/16 is best but as you stop down a bit further, the added depth of field gives the impression of better quality in prints of everyday size. For that all-in-focus feel, f/22 to f/32 is good, but don't under-estimate the artistic usefulness of mixing at will in- and out-of- focus.
I don't bother with one shutter release per lens - too likely to get damaged in my bag.

Interesting comment about the spacing of lenses being 40%. I'll go math-y a bit here: it might actually be about square root of 2. Like apertures, it gives you a sequence where you double every two intervals. That then ties in with formats: going from 5x4 to 5x7, you'd multiply by 1.4ish in order to have the equivalent focal length; and going from 5x4 to 10x8, you'd multiply by 2. I am not sure if this is why these focal length intervals were chosen so commonly at the outset, but it is a curious coincidence. Personally my favourite lens for landscape is 125mm and for architecture, it's 210mm - my colour-photography bag also has a 90mm and a 420mm. I suspect it's due to the distance (perspective / angle of view) at which the projected order in my subject chimes with my inner vision. You'll have to see what suits you to a certain extent. If you go in to portraiture, you'll want even more length and additionally lenses with large apertures, so that exposures are fast enough; eg 300mm f/4.5 which ends up being a big lens, probably best purchased in barrel format and put in front of a Sinar shutter. Yet another option for you.

In terms of shutters, for modern lenses, you're basically stuck with Copal. As Tim P implied, there were plenty of other manufacturers. An old shutter is not necessarily a bad thing - some indeed are very well made. If the actual parts are not worn, then they're fairly easy to maintain. I have found that compound shutters are repairable at home whereas Compur (and derivatives like Copal) are extraordinary clockwork. Otherwise, older shutters are expensive to repair relative to the cost of the lens. The accuracy of shutters is only important with film emulsions which require great precision, like colour reversal. For B&W, older lenses are a bargain.

Compur's from the 60's have a self-timer incorporated, to answer Dave_Whatever. Apart from the sizes given by Tim, there's a whole zoo of different sizes over the ages. If you get an older shutter, make sure it come with the retaining ring.

Just a few more thoughts to open up the debate.
Good luck!
Charles

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Re: Lenses - how to choose them?

Post by Julian Elliott » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:05 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Excellent. Thanks for the input :D

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Re: Lenses - how to choose them?

Post by Joanna Carter » Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:24 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

dave_whatever wrote:They look identical to the calumet deluxe model (incidentally the type I broke).
No, the Calumet are not as good. I believe the Gebrüder Schreck releases are sold under the Hama range http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 ... Cloth.html. I have three or four of these and am more than satisfied with them.
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