Exposure questions

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Tom Perkins
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Post by Tom Perkins » Fri May 11, 2007 8:55 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

:D Sorry guys, but I have a really dumb question. I have been getting quite a few underexposed images so far, and I think it might be down to my choice of mid tone. What exactly should I be looking for to meter as my mid tone? 50% grey or 18% grey or halfway between the darkest shadows and the brightest highlights or what? Sorry :oops:.

Lynne Evans
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Post by Lynne Evans » Fri May 11, 2007 9:33 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi Tom, I'm probably the last person to give advice amongst this wealth of hardened 'users'. But for what it's worth, I had the same problem when I switched to LF. Firstly I don't know what film you are using, but if you've still got some Velvia 50 I find I need to rate it a 32 for my large format and 40 for my medium format and 50 for 35mm (all learned by experience :cry:

For a mid tone I generally try to find some green vegetation (like grass) or decide on a mid tone grey rock. After spot metering it I then do about 4 or 5 readings using the average function on my light meter. If it matches then I'm happy! If it's really tricky I will also do an incident reading to see how that compares (like white rocks at Thornwick). If these are all over the place I pack up and find another subject :lol:

Now someone will tell you how to do it properly.

Apple
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Post by Apple » Fri May 11, 2007 10:42 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Lynne Evans wrote:Now someone will tell you how to do it properly.
I don't know whether I can do that but as Lynne says, green grass is a decent midtone as a check.

I've a Pentax spotmeter and tend to look round for highlights I in which want to keep detail and "place" them on the 10 mark on the Radio scale. This lets me scan around to find the shadows which fall around the 0 mark (approx 5 stops different) These two end points will then indicate the extremes of detail and the midoint can be read off the meter which is what you set on the camera.

You can just see the white Radio scale markings on this picture of an old Pentax digital spotmeter (not mine) but the author's covered the numbers over with the greyscale sticker :-( Left hand end is "0" and right hand end is "10"

Image


If you're stuck, try the grass test or carry a small grey card around and use that as a midtone until you get a bit more experience of placing tones and the results from them. Another alternative is that caucasian skin in sunlight is supposed to be one stop above midtone so you could use the palm of your hand if it's in the same light as the scene...

There's a bit more info on this page.

The fun comes when the tonal range is greater than 5 stops (or whatever limits you set yourself and you've to start playing with grad filters etc to control the highlights but from your site, you're not doing too bad at that method... :)

Andrew
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chipper
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Post by chipper » Fri May 11, 2007 10:54 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi Tom... 1st and foremost, what a great image you posted. I'm not remotely envious :x . Well i'm probably the second to last person to ask, but here goes. Meter from a midtone area where the light is catching it, and not from a shaded area (sorry if that one was obvious). Your eyes will learn with practice, as are mine still; a medium grass as Lynn said, the red brick of a building etc. Are you familiar with 'reciprocity failure'?.
Long exposure times are common in LF photography, which means we have to compensate by extending the exposure time for any shot beyond the 1 second mark. Generally with Velvia, a 4 second exposure will require an extra 1/3 stop. 8 seconds will require an extra 1/2 stop. 16 seconds, 2/3 stop, and 30 seconds, 1 stop extra. Best to achieve this by using a smaller f stop as opposed to increasing the exposure time. As you've found out, you find your shots under-exposed as opposed to over-exposed, which is common, so on those shots where you think you have a real peach, it's always worth exposing an extra sheet or two at a different exposure to be as sure as you can to 'nail it'. Stu.

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Post by Charles Twist » Sat May 12, 2007 8:32 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I admit I had to google for the extreme ironing. Having done so, I am very im-pressed by their "board". What a wonderfully silly sense of humour they have! I approve of the monikers they give themselves eg Limescaler or Crease Lightning. I think we should find something suitable for ourselves (I can't be alone, can I?): Autozoom, Rangefinder, Aperturescaler? There must be a good one.
Anyway, Tom, with all that talk, you must think me a master of exposure (more groans :lol: ).
I agree with what has been said above re metering on green grass and importantly the benefit of experience. You'll find pale objects (skin, chalk rock, flowers, grass in winter) are indeed a stop or so brighter than the background, and it's a good idea to let them be a stop brighter in the final picture to make them look realistic (ie expose for the darker surround). Likewise open shade tends to be a stop darker than the sunny bit, and you can either let the bright bit be a stop over or adjust with an ND grad.
Q: Looking at your pics, are they dark all over or just in some areas? A: ND grads might be good solution, maybe using the staggered grad approach.
Q: Are the highlights burnt out and the shadows blocked out? A: That's more dynamic range than the film can handle. You'll have to learn what can be sacrified.
Do you remember what you light-metered for when the pics come out right and wrong?
I might be wrong in this (I am still finidng out), but I think one has to meter differently according to whether one shoots colour or B&W, ie choose a different mid-tone, since the dynamic ranges of each film type are different, and you won't lose so much shadow and highlight detail in a B&W shot.
If we can help, don't be afraid to ask. We're all learning as we go.
Charles

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Post by DJ » Sat May 12, 2007 11:16 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I don't know what advice I can offer, my experience with metering is a bit hit and miss too, but here goes.

Firstly, take a notebook. Write down each exposure. I believe metering is a learned process, you're going to make mistakes, but you won't improve unless you learn from them, and you can't do that if you're guessing from scratch each time. It's a bit of a chore, but worth it.

Next, it's important to have some idea of the dynamic range of your film. There's a thread where I asked a similar question some time ago :

viewtopic.php?t=179

I prefer Fuji Velvia 50 which I generally assume to have about 4-4.5 stops of range, and I rate it as ISO 40 on my meter. I put my meter into EV mode, and look around my scene, I find the EV of the highlight area, and I find the EV of the shadow area to find out what range I must work with. I'll then use ND filters to get these within 4.5 stops of each other if at all possible. I then look around and find something in the scene with a reading just below the mid-point of that, and use that for my final metering. For example, if my highlight is EV 9.5, and my shadow area is EV 5, I'll look for something at EV 7 or thereabouts. When I'm done with the filtering etc, I'll switch the meter back to aperture mode, set my aperture, and take a reading from my known metering point. Then add on any compensation for reciprocity failure or bellows compensation, and you have your exposure time.

I don't claim it's the best method in the world, it can be a bit hit and miss, but the more I do it, the more I seem to work out the kinks.

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Post by Joanna Carter » Sat May 12, 2007 2:38 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

DJ wrote:I prefer Fuji Velvia 50 which I generally assume to have about 4-4.5 stops of range
I would disagree with that estimation of range for Velvia 50. I used to expect that from Velvia 100 but found that I was still getting blocked shadows or blown highlights. Since I started limiting Velvia 100 to 4 stops my results have been much more predictable. Although I have never actually used Velvia 50, my feeling is that, if you limited the expectation to between 3 and 3 1/2 stops, you will stand a better chance of "perfection" :D
DJ wrote:... and I rate it as ISO 40 on my meter.
Now this is something I never understand; why change the rating on a film ? Surely, what would be better is to understand how much of the range of the film is above and how much below the "standard" exposure instead of just cutting the range in half ?

For example, my Nikon D100 seemed to meter for 1 1/2 stops over and 4 1/2 stops under its measured exposure before blowing and blocking respectively. Come to think of it, that used to force us to deliberately under-expose by 0.7 to 1 stop; so I guess adjusting the ISO rating on film could achieve the same kind of result.
DJ wrote:I put my meter into EV mode, and look around my scene, I find the EV of the highlight area, and I find the EV of the shadow area to find out what range I must work with. I'll then use ND filters to get these within 4.5 stops of each other if at all possible. I then look around and find something in the scene with a reading just below the mid-point of that, and use that for my final metering. For example, if my highlight is EV 9.5, and my shadow area is EV 5, I'll look for something at EV 7 or thereabouts. When I'm done with the filtering etc, I'll switch the meter back to aperture mode, set my aperture, and take a reading from my known metering point. Then add on any compensation for reciprocity failure or bellows compensation, and you have your exposure time.
Now this is something that I (sort of) do; except that I simply take (for Velvia 100) the shadow reading and then add two stops to it; sort of the equivalent of placing that reading in zone 3 for B&W work. I then meter for the highlights to see what I get that is over the "zone 5" reading and if it exceeds 2EV over, I will try and use a grad ND; if the over-range highlights are in the middle of the shot and can't be filtered, I will either abandon the shot until a softer light or take more than one shot to accomodate the range, mixing them together in Photoshop. N.B. I do not use the HDR gizmo in Photoshop, instead I manually copy correctly exposed Highlight/shadow areas into the "other" picture and blend them together subtly :roll:

So Tom, my 2¢ worth of advice is not to take your reading from a "midpoint" but, as DJ suggests, to take it to be a known difference from either a shadow or highlight point, depending on the film range.

e.g.
You are taking a scene in which you have a clearly separable are like the sky over a relatively straight horizon.

The darkest part in which you want detail reads EV7 therefore your exposure will be whatever combination of speed and f/stop gives you EV9.

Then, and only then, do you meter for the brightest part of the sky which, for the sake of the example given gives you EV13; therefore you will need a 0.6 ND grad, but this has no bearing at all on the already decided exposure.

Now, does that clarify or confuse ? :?
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Lynne Evans
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Post by Lynne Evans » Sat May 12, 2007 8:18 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I bet you wish you hadn't asked! :)

Tom Perkins
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Post by Tom Perkins » Sat May 12, 2007 8:49 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

:D Thanks everyone.
I think I like Joanna's idea of metering for the shadows and (presumably not adding but taking away) 2 stops? That seems to make sense. Is that the same for provia, or do I need to change the number of stops?
Thanks,
Tom.

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Metering suggestion.

Post by Aynsley Cooper » Sat May 12, 2007 9:29 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Tom
I like simple, its how I think (no jeering, please, its unseemly...!)
Understand that transparency film has a limited range, suggested to be 3 to 4.5 stops for example.
Personally, I tend to accept a 4 stop range. From 0, +/- 2.5 is white or black.
So:
Allow for the shadows.
Meter for the mid tones.
Filter the highlights to bring them in range.
Have fun.
Aynsley

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Post by Ole Tjugen » Sun May 13, 2007 2:50 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I like to keep things simple, so I usually just measure incident light when use slide film. With B&W I spot meter the shadows and decide from that how much exposure they need, and then (sometimes) check the highlights to see if "fancy" development is needed.
Ole Tjugen

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Post by Joanna Carter » Sun May 13, 2007 3:24 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Tom Perkins wrote:I think I like Joanna's idea of metering for the shadows and (presumably not adding but taking away) 2 stops?
Yes, if you were using the zone system, you would be said to be putting the exposure for the shadows in zone 3, in other words, making it darker by 2 stops. e.g. measure 1/2sec - expose at 1/8sec.
Tom Perkins wrote:That seems to make sense. Is that the same for provia, or do I need to change the number of stops?
Experimentation is always a good idea but I would tend to start by working with 2 1/2 stops for Provia, depending on the subject.
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Minolta Spotmeter F.

Post by Keith Tapscott » Sun May 13, 2007 6:07 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Tom Perkins wrote::D Sorry guys, but I have a really dumb question. I have been getting quite a few underexposed images so far, and I think it might be down to my choice of mid tone. What exactly should I be looking for to meter as my mid tone? 50% grey or 18% grey or halfway between the darkest shadows and the brightest highlights or what? Sorry :oops:.
I use a Minolta Spotmeter F with colour transparency films and set the meter to the recommended ISO and take a light reading from the white side of a Kodak Grey-Card which represents a `diffuse` highlight. The meter reads this as a mid-tone and the standard reading will grievously under expose the film. For the correct reading, simply press the `Highlight` key.
For B&W negative films, I use the recommended ISO and meter for the darkest part of the subject that I wish to retain some detail and then press the `Shadow` key. The results are uncannily accurate.
If I`m in a lazy mood, I use the TTL reading on my 35mm SLR camera.
With reversal films, expose for the highlights and with negative films, expose for the shadows.

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