Le ding dong

A place to talk about photography, the meaning of life and anything that doesn't quite fit elsewhere
Aynsley Cooper
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:05 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: Staffordshire

There's the rub...

Post by Aynsley Cooper » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:31 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Charles, I have real sympathy with your position. Its why I stay (usually) off this type of discussion.
If (when?) your own work becomes (in) famous, or critically acclaimed, it will almost certainly do so because of a future reviewer. At that time, there will probably be new, different concepts of the idea of a (the) photographic aesthetic. (I hardly dare read that sentence, someone will come in and beat me for my ignorance, I'm sure)
What will you have spent your time doing? Did it (will it have) please(d) you? - then DO that thing.
I want to spend mine making images that mean something to me - and I find that the larger the format, the harder it gets. I still enjoy it immensely. Banging my head on a wall doesn't help me.
Create your own work because you feel something about it. Others may (will) judge it, and frankly, who cares what they say?
I'm gone - later
:lol:

sandeha
Forum Hero
Posts: 118
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:39 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: South Wales
Contact:

Post by sandeha » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:42 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

If I have one problem with this kind of discussion it's that I find it hard to resist. I feel like Snoopy watching his dinner arrive ... grrrrrh.

Blame it on a Fine Arts degree. And the truth is I wish I had studied Design rather than Fine Art and the accompanying philosophy. On the one hand, 'art' (be it photography or needlepoint) is simply what people do. On the other, since we listen to music that has rhythm and don't listen to music that lacks rhythm (OK, so some folks get a turn-on from atonal noise) there is sure to be something (some element, the proverbial je ne sais quoi) that makes some artwork interesting or pleasing to some, or most, or at least to a few people, or even just to oneself. And some artwork less so.

And you can apply that to why and how you photograph; why one image satisfies more than another, and whatever it is that prompts you to think you could do better next time. I see composition as rhythm, and irrespective of whether your bag happens to be colour, or line, or texture, or tone, we humans respond to rhythm.

I suspect that most of our responses to rhythm are conditioned in the womb. Even if you accept that some of our responses may be the acquired tastes of adulthood and education, I suspect that the range and selection of rhythms that please or disturb probably changes very little during a lifetime.

Ole's comment is a great one, I think ... significant feedback enhances Ole's life. I'd put money on it that Ole won't be cutting his ear off any time soon.

So anyway, preamble done. My purpose in most of what I do, and that includes making images, is creating and/or finding rhythms. My difficulty (certainly in photography) is developing a visual language that supports the rhythms that generate life-enhancing feedback.

Charles Twist
Founder
Posts: 721
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:33 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: Cleveland
Contact:

Post by Charles Twist » Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:56 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Brian E wrote:
Hey All - come back to the real world
Ah yes, but what is the real world? :wink:
Sorry I just couldn't resist.
As Sandeha implies, Van Gogh may not have been the best choice. I have yet to read his letters to his brother, but I think he got pretty cut up by the remarks of Joe Bloggs and especially the attitudes of fellow artists. The fact that he was a smelly drunkard will not have made the PR man's job any easier...
Aynsley: you basically agree with Brian and most other photographers on these fora. The perception of aesthetics is sure going to have to change for me to have any chance of fame! Having said that, I don't think the perception of aesthetics is changing that much, for the simple reason that everyone follows this attitude of "whatever pleases me is right". The community does not have much of a chance to evolve if the artist is locked in upon himself. It mainly progresses by sudden leaps as individuals hit upon a striking idea or a new bit of kit. How far it is possible for other individuals to take up these new ideas, is questionable however. Our art world seems to me very fragmented. I can't help but think that genuine progress is made through cohesion. To what extent is landscape photography in the UK all very same-y at the moment? If so, what is that due to? Are we already functioning as a pack? Or are we all facing the same limitations and technological answers? And bringing back to what matters to the individuals: How much pleasure does one derive from working in a close-knit group? Enough to satisfy us? Feel free to disagree and comment: I am just bandying questions around.
These fora are great for encouraging discussions and comparing notes. It's nice to think that the participants can feed off each other. So thank you Sandeha for sharing your beliefs in rhythms. I'll start another thread on that subject, in order to keep this thread about what people are doing photographically, trying to prove (if anything), projects and broadcasting.
Thanks for reading,
Charles

Richard Kelham
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:40 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: north Norfolk

Post by Richard Kelham » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:44 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Charles Twist wrote:I don't think the perception of aesthetics is changing that much, for the simple reason that everyone follows this attitude of "whatever pleases me is right". The community does not have much of a chance to evolve if the artist is locked in upon himself. It mainly progresses by sudden leaps as individuals hit upon a striking idea or a new bit of kit. How far it is possible for other individuals to take up these new ideas, is questionable however. Our art world seems to me very fragmented. I can't help but think that genuine progress is made through cohesion. To what extent is landscape photography in the UK all very same-y at the moment? If so, what is that due to? Are we already functioning as a pack? Or are we all facing the same limitations and technological answers?
Charles
You have posed some very interesting and pertinent questions, to which I don't really have any answers! My training was in commercial/advertising photography, and though I have subsequently read Sontag, Barthes and Berger, not to mention Webster and Braden, I find it difficult to come to a deep understanding of just what might constitute a "new aesthetic".

I recently had a holiday in Yorkshire and took a few snaps of the obvious places. I then looked at the results of this group's workshop and, yup, we are functioning as a pack: photo of Whitby Abbey reflected in the pool – check. Photo of Staithes from Cowbar Nab – check. And so on. Just be grateful I didn't get as far as Lindisfarne! Maybe I just have to get the cliches out of my system before I can move to something else; something that is 'me'. But don't hold your breath.

Aynsley Cooper
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:05 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: Staffordshire

Post by Aynsley Cooper » Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:26 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Charles/Sandeha/Richard
I've enjoyed reading these, and your later cross posts, and found them helpful on a personal level.
Can I also say that I found that the manner in which the personal views have been articulated here are rather more understandable than some philosophical text I've tried...
I'll watch with interest.
A
:o

Rob 5419
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:23 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Post by Rob 5419 » Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:41 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi Charles,

you're a moderator (gulp!) ;)

No doubt your status contributes to some of the civility in these discussions, no? ;) Perhaps the French/English channel in splitting views of aesthetics is not as evident as the thought of....transposing your question from the English/American gulf and asking it on APUG :)

For the most part, the French thread you describe, expresses views which follow the analytical/continental tradition. Your question about aesthetics, becomes subject to French analysis of what presuppositions lie unexpressed behind your question of beauty. I enjoyed following the thread, although the sarcasm of some of the forum users is a bit startling.

On the other hand, English philosophy has always taken a more utilitarian/pragmatic if not latter-day empirical sense. If this view is true, then its people embody that attitude (of pragmatism - "get on with it", rather than dithering and thinking inactively, not that the latter constitutes analysis). "If it sells, then it works." If I gain some pleasure from making a sale, it must be beautiful. If my colleague or others like the image, then altruisitically, there is a stimulus-response rewarding system encoded in producing such images. Not....."If I like it, then it must be because there is some hitherto unthought known (the Freudian subconscious)" about what I like, or why I should like it.

Beauty - "Which I don't really mind to fathom, since I know what I like." is a popular attitude. Personally I think, despite this view's limitations, this is what I fall into. I don't think too deeply (analytically) about why I like things. I'm drawn to images that I like, even if that happens to be images others are making 100 years ago, rather than ones I am making today.


As you say, the case for absolute beauty is hard to argue; if only because the concept of the Absolute is almost alien to modern day thinking and philosophy. I say alien, partly because this adjective is emblematic of the modern civilisation which upholds cultural relativism and toleration (to the point of defying logic - also known as political correctness'.

Back to the French side:

I'm not sure if most of the French forum members on www.galeriephoto express that 'their own individual version of beauty mattered most in their decision'. The subgroup are quick to reject statistical (i.e. empirical) means (crowd-pleasing averaging median types of commercial photos), however they express a stronger view: that they find validity in pursuing photographic expression, as a means of self-validation. Can I put it as strongly as that?

If so, then personal vision matters more than 'what the other thinks'. Tapping into a set of contingent tick-boxes, like 'criteria to make a photograph beautiful' is nonsensical: the scientific and verifiable has no place in aesthetics. Unless one is into photographing tractors and delapidated barns.

If not, err, it's been fun spouting for a bit on this forum whilst LF Photography Forum is down :lol:

A question for you Charles. Which do you value more: beauty in the act of photographing, or meaning....'significance' or 'signification', derived from the engagement of the photographic act? Or if a consequentialist - does only the results matter, over and above, the act of photographing?

Charles Twist
Founder
Posts: 721
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:33 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: Cleveland
Contact:

Post by Charles Twist » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:07 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hello Rob,
The French can be sarcastic. Very often, as individuals, they don't like their authority contested and like to increase any auhtority that might be conferred unto them, by putting others down. There are exceptions to the rule, but there are superb exemplaries too. IMHO.
"'their own individual version of beauty mattered most in their decision'" / "photographic expression, as a means of self-validation" / "personal vision matters more than 'what the other thinks'" : all three phrases are equivalent, are they not? I don't see the contradiction. Please explain if there is one.
Final question: I am not sure where that is leading, but I'll play along and hope you don't disappear back to the 'other' forum ( :wink: ). Although I didn't know the term, I wouldn't call myself a consequentialist. I go out and take pictures because I like the locale and want a record of it and that moment. I have to say that I classify locales into two broad categories: nice to look at (as a mere mortal) and photo-fodder. More often than not, I find that what makes a nice picture is not what appealed to me as a mere mortal. It is rare that mere-mortal-beauty survives the photographic process. But the photographic process can transcend the mere-mortal-triviality of a scene. I enjoy photographing because I enjoy the act of setting up the camera. Until recently, it has been hard for me to predict what the tranny will look like in more than general terms. Until recently, I have not had what one may call a project, ie assembling a series of pictures under a theme rather than just recording scattershot fashion. But I still maintain that there is a gulf between the image on the ground glass and the tranny. The tranny is disconnected physically from the scene. It takes on a life of its own. It can be treated as I treated the locale: as something nice (or otherwise), as something with its colours and forms, as something from which I will derive a fresh set of aesthetic reactions. It can have the mere-mortal beauty that the scene didn't have. That's what I love about LF photography.
Bring on the next question.
Charles

Rob 5419
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:23 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Post by Rob 5419 » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:45 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi Charles,

the personalities on the French thread are more dominant than the slivers of sarcasm ;)

Here's a few thumbnail sketches:

"'their own individual version of beauty mattered most in their decision'" / "photographic expression, as a means of self-validation" / "personal vision matters more than 'what the other thinks'" : all three phrases are equivalent, are they not? I don't see the contradiction. Please explain if there is one.

"'their own individual version of beauty mattered most in their decision'"
The first view is pregnant with the unexplored assumption: of what constitutes beauty. The mattering...of beauty...does not bear on the question of self.
"photographic expression, as a means of self-validation"
The second view, that of serendepity through a lens; a process of discovery - as much as 'touching on the infinite' can be approximated on celluloid, as one of the forum members ventures, is akin to that process of self-actualisation. Discovery. Not just seeing the f***** grand canyon from a tourist bus with a preplanned itinerary, but actually discovering a scene, which beholds.

Do we remember what it is, to actually 'behold' what is before us?

Self-validation and its assertion are not the same, and self-validation takes place in the most clandestine of corners, whereas self-expression can happen on the most superficial of planes.
"personal vision matters more than 'what the other thinks'"
Finally - personal vision matters more than what the other thinks. A headstrong approach. Unnecessarily connected to the second view, in so far as self-validation, is a process in the journey of being - becoming alive to oneself. If personal vision matters more than what the other thinks, I am less prone to review or revise (i.e. learn, or remain open to discovery) where I am in my photographic work.

Why go to lengths to tease out what attitude lies behind each approach, which sounds 'more or less', like one of the three? There is no contradiction, insofar as human minds, work and operate with inconsistency, moving fluidly from 1). 2). or 3). It is only when our views about aesthetics are examined...and the unexamined life...is it worth photographing?

Why draw the distinction? Perhaps because I am finding that the philosophy behind the aesthetic, determines its expression. Not so much in a cogently synthesised and rational intellectual application, but through the process of intuiting images, based on one's own worldview. Sensing that connection with an image before it is apprehended:
Dans ce cas, le photographe n'a guère de mérite. Pour faire de belles photos, il suffirait alors de prendre de beaux sujets ? Non, l'émotion ne se laisse pas saisir sur la pellicule, se serait trop facile. Le photographe tente peut-être de transposer dans son travail (prise de vue et post-traitement) l'émotion qui l'a troublé quelques instants plus tôt...
- vdh

Until recently, I have not had what one may call a project, ie assembling a series of pictures under a theme rather than just recording scattershot fashion. But I still maintain that there is a gulf between the image on the ground glass and the tranny. The tranny is disconnected physically from the scene. It takes on a life of its own. It can be treated as I treated the locale: as something nice (or otherwise), as something with its colours and forms, as something from which I will derive a fresh set of aesthetic reactions. It can have the mere-mortal beauty that the scene didn't have.
Is it possible, to live without one's Muse? What is the guiding principle, if one wanders in itinerant fashion? I suppose in some respects, you follow 2). photographic expression as a means of self-validation.

There has to be a 'gulf' between the image on the ground glass and the tranny, in the same that imitation, and duping is not the aesthetic experience. An interactional theory of the relationship between photographer and scene, anticipates that the fresh set of aesthetic reactions which are aroused, are aroused in many ways. From an unmasking of the beauty which the naked eye failed to apprehend in the actual scene. From a meditation of one's own way of seeing, to distill or refine the conceptual grasp of the scene, thus impregnating an image with an idea; from filtering out the redundant colour; from selectively abstracting the form of the scene. That is, in essence, unmasking the aesthetic which only a deeper relationship with one's tools in discovering the world photographically, actually achieves.

Well I guess that isn't going to make a heck of a lot of sense to anyone :)

Charles Twist
Founder
Posts: 721
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:33 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: Cleveland
Contact:

Post by Charles Twist » Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:18 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Well I guess that isn't going to make a heck of a lot of sense to anyone
Don't belittle yourself: that's our job! :wink:
Well, I realise that the years have been unkind to my recollection of philosophical terms.
Not so much in a cogently synthesised and rational intellectual application, but through the process of intuiting images, based on one's own worldview.
That's very elegantly put. As I said on the French forum, at the time of taking the picture, there is
un moment de décryptage, une recherche de la signification, une mise en valeur, une comparaison avec nos connaissances.
In 'connaissances', I include past emotion.
To be pedantic, I distinguish between 'image' which to me is what appears on the ground glass, and 'photograph' which is to me the tranny/ negative and/or print. The latter cannot be discussed in terms of physics; it is divorced from the instrument. We're agreed that a thorough knowledge of the instrument subtends the achievement of the anticipated result.
I also like your other comment about the process being pre-verbal. I would have said non-verbal, but other than the position or presence of language relative to the photograph which we anticipate, we're basically agreed.
I must admit I struggle with your concept of self-validation. Would you care to expand on your understanding of this term? Until I understand better your definition, I will neither confirm or deny that is what I do. If it is exploration or discovery of the self, then why not call it so? Do you mean exploring one's self by analysing one's reaction to the perceived world? Why should the perception of many facets of the Grand Canyon improve my knowledge of my self?
I doubt one's Muse needs a project to make her voice heard. (Or is that another phrase said in jest?) The project helps to put order in one's collection of photographs, whether the project is described before of after the photographs are acquired. That order helps with rationalising, giving meaning (which is what you were asking about), making public, making a complex statement, commercialisation; it also helps a photographer to whittle down which subject to photograph next and to a certain extent in what style. The project does not help with taking better individual photographs, does it?
The 'scattershot' comment also has other echoes:
What is the guiding principle, if one wanders in itinerant fashion?
That for me is the very basis of travel photography. Travelling with an LF camera is an experience I have enjoyed considerably. While I am quite capable of snapping (a wonderful release from LF!), recording a journey through the LF camera is to see the place in greater detail (and record in greater detail!), is to notice the small details. It also puts me in direct contact with my Muse: I am wondering whether the image will make a good photograph before I have even got the kit out of the bag, simply because the process is a slog. The total record is far more personal. Taken as a whole, it ceases to be a mechanical record of all that I saw on that journey; it becomes a record of how I see. It is far more likely to speak of my Muse's whispers than of the itinerary.
Charles

Rob 5419
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:23 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Post by Rob 5419 » Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:06 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Lol Charles - clearly if you understand these musings, then you're very special :D

Bergson would recognise the processes you describe, un moment de decryptage, perhaps, an effervescence of l'élan vital, the intuitive substrate which motivates a photographer to seek out the world. To know it.

I understand your separation of 'image' and print; yes - the latter is separate, but why think in purely Cartesian terms, and not synthetic terms, in terms of the process of transformation, from the image to the print?

At the moment, playing with a Leica M6, I feel like I'm on a point of contradicting myself. I have achieved nothing with it so far. It has cost more than my LF kit, and my knowledge of it is probably greater in terms of tactile fondling yet nothing extends from this ;)

With respect to photography and self-validation....I've spent most of my career shooting weddings. From that premise, you can see I never had much to speak of.

Listen to our friend:
je photographie pour me sentir aimer et souffrir. Je photographie pour me prouver que je suis vivant.
Perhaps he is more fortunate (and resolute?) than I am. He has found a means of discovery; of serendepity and knowing of oneself in the process of imaging. Think of it more than the camera as an extension of the eye, but the act of photographing, as an extension of the self.

I wasn't joking about my method: "this one sucks. Next - this one sucks. Next - this one might not suck so bad...". A process of forward stepping in self-validation, by taking one less step back. Feeling and rooting for a way to know what it is I try to express. My own method - self-validation, only takes place when I can doubt. Doubt what I do in clicking the shutter, clicking anyway, trying to make sense of it, doubting whether I ever capture anything that is meaningful at all. I guess I share more with Descartes than I would care to admit.

Our friend on the other hand, validates himself in the feeling of love and suffering, in capturing an essence - the essential in photography, which informs him of his existence.

And can essence precede the existence? Clearly for others in this mode, there seems no problem in making sense of photographie-en-soi rather than photographie-pour-soi. The self-validating photographer claims that photographie-pour-soi, when his eyes are alive to the world around him, reaps something existential for himself.

'Exploration or discovery of the self' is what teenagers do in dear diary affairs. At some point, there has to be a clarification of the level at which one tries to make sense of one's life on a philosophical level. That alone is relevant for the philosopher, or the reflecting agent that man can be.

Self-validation - a moment of beholding - when one is beholden, there is an aspect of one's awareness - call it 'awe' in which one is beholden before the world. In a moment like this, I am alive - and the circumstances - the relation with the visual presentiment brings me into this moment of beholding. That is the bit which precedes the click. The experience which brings me closer to recognising how good it is to be alive. And that precedes what is required of me as a photographer, to exercise in doubt, or self-assertion, that I had better get clicking and on to expressing this which I have been beholden by. So back to the question:

- why should the perception of many facets of the Grand Canyon improve my knowledge of my self?

Because it isn't the facets of the Grand Canyon which confer such knowledge to me. It is the fact that my perception experiences a Gestalt shift, one in which I am embodied in this experience, and thus beholden. Locked in, in visual relation, I just won't let go of such beauty.

Is that such a strange idea? I find it no different than the thought that it isn't how many different qualities of a friend's personality which improves self-knowledge or awareness. It is the love in the interaction, which enables one to become beholden to another.

In any case, analytical philosophy is not the tendency of the British photographer, as the French forum thread demonstrates. Your thoughts on travel photography resonate with mine: there is freedom when one's photographic work is not contrived by a theme too.

Charles Twist
Founder
Posts: 721
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:33 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: Cleveland
Contact:

Post by Charles Twist » Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:46 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I am going to get personal as I think that is the only forward. I apologise if I am presuming or abusing your patience.
I agree that it sometimes seems that photography facilitates a dialogue between what is around us and our selves. True: very often, the non-photographic visit is short and superficial. Stopping to take a picture, especially one that is meaningful - for aesthetic or documentary reasons - requires an understanding of the place, which usually requires time. Then the place can leave an impression upon us. We are engaging with what surrounds us and in a sense we become part of that world.
But I think that feeling of participation (which I think is very close to what you call self-validation when it is seen as proof of our existence) is illusory. We are in fact requiring an understanding of our perception of the place (un moment de décryptage, une comparaison avec nos connaissances) or better still, of the place's meaning (recherche de la signification, mise en valeur)(1). I am not an animist; I will not give the real world any kind of spirituality. If it leaves an impression upon me, it is because I will it. I see the real world as passive in that sense. Therefore, there is no dialogue between me and it. I suspect that what you describe as self-validation is little more than using a fancy word to massage one's angst or awe before a world which we neither comprehend nor control - a world in which we belong as material beings (res extensa since you mention Descartes) but not as spiritual beings.
I am not someone who believes we ever gain a true knowledge of what happens in the real world (due to the distortion of perception). In my opinion, we can however gain true knowledge of the human world (something akin to Popper's World 3) because it is part of our subject (as knowledge for instance) and our subject is part of it (as active participants to the community). This world, I would call the human object as it is evidently 'before me' (ob-ject) and it does not depend on me alone for its continuance: it depends on the human community. I believe that we can tap into that world through our spirituality. If you were to talk about self-validation as a means of communicating with the human object, I would agree with a lot of what you say. I see photography as an artistic endeavour, the product of which enters the human object. When I am out photographing, I wrestle with the real object and I listen to the human object. I take from the latter and when I have the photograph, I wish to give it to that world in return. That participation is genuine and it does make me feel a part of community and it does cause me to feel I exist (as Sartre held the word). I don't believe that anything within the human object can be en-soi, in-itself. The human object does not exist without the community. So photographie-en-soi is an oxymoron. My world vision sees art-for-me (pour-moi) as morally wrong: I cannot just take, take, take. I must give too for I will not be the Sartrian 'salaud'.
What is interesting about this world view, is the ambivalence of the photograph: it is both a real and a human object, a window between two worlds. (The last 150 years have seen a couple such innovations, recorded sound being the other that comes to mind.) As such, this window is indeed analogous to our perceptions which are a window between objects and subject. I think that you will have to resign yourself to a Cartesian-style dualism between the image and the photograph. They belong to different worlds. Furthermore, I will say that the physical transformation from image to photograph is not controlled even if we accept that most of the steps are determined (see other post on E6 processing for example). So I refute the synthetic vision.
Let me know if I have misunderstood you or if you have trouble understanding any of the above. I am also curious to know what you think the answer to your initial question is:
Which do you value more: beauty in the act of photographing, or meaning....'significance' or 'signification', derived from the engagement of the photographic act? Or if a consequentialist - does only the results matter, over and above, the act of photographing?
And where do you stand on that question?
Charles
(1) I see a concept's meaning as the sum of its connections with other concepts. In my view, perception leads to percepts which are then assimilated to our subject in order to create concepts.

Post Reply