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uraniumnitrate
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Post by uraniumnitrate » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:05 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Actually I always wanted to ask you the following questions about photography's situation in the UK for a long time ago.

Does the photographic image have any status in the world of art
in the UK and if it does, how it appears?
How about the exhibitions, are they well received by the UK public? Do they coming to your exhibitions? Interesting to know if they buy your art or just the big names sellig some?

Now we all know how is it in the US but how about it in the UK and say all around in Europe for that matter?

The discussion is to learn what we are missing and what we can do to learn the public more about our art and to act like the US public.

Love to hear your opinion as this is intresting or do we just containing to do exhibitions with out any return?

Frankie.

Did some editing because I think it sounds better. :-)

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Post by PAUL O » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:39 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi Frankie. This subject has been discussed by Joanna and myself on numerous occasions and she has first-hand experience of the status given to photography in France - I'm sure she'll add to this thread.

Here in the UK photography seems to be the poor relation when it comes to "art". I can remember 20 years ago when most cities had galleries devoted to photography and many had public darkrooms too!

Sadly, the majority of galleries are closed as are the darkroom spaces.

The "exhibitions" appear to be confined to the "big names" and most of these are in the main UK cities - London, Edinburgh, Glasgow etc.

However there are many local exhibitions found in places like libraries and community centres and many of these feature local photographers. A great many of these spaces are used by camera clubs to host annual exhibitions but I'm not sure how well-attended they are? Again, I can remember the situation when there were so many photographic exhibitions, competitions, portrait photographers and clubs that it was mind-boggling! Plus these events were always well-attended and well-publicised.

My own feeling is that the digital photographic world has heralded the demise of many of these resources. This is not having a go at digital either!

But there is little "mystery" surrounding photography nowadays - it's simply a case of shoot, delete, print!! I don't think many people are that "impressed" by photography/photographers - after all everyone'd got a digital compact camera - as a matter of interest the last 3 weddings that I've been invited to last year all saw "keen amateurs" as official photographers! On two occasions this had nothging to do with "saving cash" but the couple preferred to use a "friend with a good camera".

The internet has also made gallery/websites easily available and again I'm convinced that people would rather "surf" photographic art than "pay" admission to an exhibition?

It would be interesting to see exactly how many (amateur) photographers in the UK actually sell their work :shock:

Up until ten years ago I made a "healthy" (second) income from selling traditional black and white landscape prints. But I'm convinced that the ease of use of digital cameras, lower pricing, better quality, ease of printing, use of Photoshop, better home inkjet printers has killed off this market - I'm not even going to consider the fact that people probably got bored with my prints :oops:

I honestly think the general public think "I can do that with my Canon/NIkon/Fuji etc and print at home" - so don't "waste" their money buying other photographers' work??

But all is not doom and gloom :lol:

I think that things will come full circle - people using digital cameras will keep photography alive and will then become aware of "traditional" photography - and this may resurrect film-based workflows?

Am I being too naive?

Imagine never knowing that cameras used film that was processed in the dark and printed with an enalrger ... And then discovering this fact! Digital will be ditched and film will once again rule the world :twisted:

uraniumnitrate
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Post by uraniumnitrate » Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:44 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Those galleries closed down here to which were specialized to photographic art but still some other commercial galleries show photography now and then (mostly porno or related to that) because its popular for pervo to go and look and pay for the admiision to get in there. :-)

Some places does show prints but it's mostly state or owned by the city councils.

Please don't misunderstand me. I love what I do and my images are nice on my own walls but, exhibitions are costly and if you are not in the business of the commercial photography there you might want to require some new costumers than it's hopples. At least this is the situation in Sweden.

Now I paint and that's how I earn my living its pays my rent but the other of my art just sucks it out of me all the time. I'm at this point thinking of blowing all the exhibition and have that photographic art as for my own satisfaction a relaxation from the terrible boring painting activities. Like the idea is nice and the ready product, your painting too but, the way to get there it's lonely and a real slavery.

But it's wrong!! We should or could earn money because we put in a lot's of effort to get those images. we can't keep them secret as this is our reality, everyday life, documentation of our being as mankind.

Also prints should be long lived not only untill the next technology arrives.

In smaller places like libraries those digitalist's took over and of course they are tough too. They think they are the big one! Artists I mean. Photoshop and no knowledge at all showing photography printed on canvases extremely bad images and they thinks that they are Leonardo Da Vinci.

It's just hit me when I come home from my exhibition In Hungary and melt things down as it's always take some time that the public there received the exhibition far better than the public does it here. Even do that the country had major film manufacturer Forte and there is Argentum cameras made but, 90 % of the photography is made by digital cameras.

The real thing is appreciated and the pinhole drown a cue of people who wanted to view it. Now here in Sweden you probably got beaten by this digi's. ( I call them wannabies) :-) Of course its all because they must defend their lock of knowledge somehow. They saying things like the film is primitive and they think they are saving the world to. They are environment freaks to you know :)

There is just one little problem do in their argument that all electronic junk hazardous plastics and other stuff is more problem that those little chemistry we use. Se and read national Geography.
I'm not afraid of what I know but do what I didn't know. So, how many years took before we realized the backside of the DDT or Asbestos for that matter? And tell me what we are going to do with all the junk like sensors plastic and even your monitor which contains Led and the plastic PCB when it burns.

What I wanted to say with this that is if somebody paint than after a while they realize that they are not an artist but digital photographer will never do that and they aggressively kill the traditional photographic art and of course photoshop is a big help to doing so.

And last, there one question. Now why on earth anyone would recreate or forge the reality in order to be called an artist?
Last edited by uraniumnitrate on Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:36 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00, edited 1 time in total.

Apple
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Post by Apple » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:12 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

As you and Paul mentioned, it's seen as 'anyone can do it.' They've got their P&S compact and a computer & printer at home so how hard can it be? I'd wager a lot of "Joe Public" photography now is only to prove to their mates that they were at a party / grab shots of no artistic value etc. A lot will get uploaded to Facebook and similar so all you need is something cheap and nasty (hence the proliferation of camera phones.) As it's available to the masses (or the great unwashed depending on your point of view) it's become common and easy - there's no cache or status to being one of the select few Photographers now.

Anything that requires the "photographer" to think is discarded as it's slow and nobody bothers with that stuff now... You're seen as quaint / old fashioned / an old fart / not with it etc it you have a darkcloth over your head and they can't believe that any LF camera is under 100 years old.

From a camera club photography point of view, everything is now assumed to be digital and therefore, has been made 'perfect' through Photoshop. Anything that isn't glowing in highly saturated colours, sharpened so much you could cut your fingers on the picture is virtually seen as a failure. If you look in magazines, any 35mm film pictures tend to lose out as they have this olde worlde stuff called 'grain' showing on them. People (and quite a few judges) don't understand the need for LF as it's just a picture on a piece of paper and "I could have done that." Straight prints entered for exhibitions get short shrift now (no matter how good they are)- it's got to be "non-standard" in process / colour / subject or following the rest of the sheep in composition to get anywhere.

I'm not being anti-digital as it has it's uses but for many, there's no acceptance that anything else can be any good if it's not done the digital way.

For exhibitions, last year I organised the local showing of the national exhibition for the cream of club photography. It was visited by approx. 700 people (or these were the ones who filled in the comments book.) It was held in gallery in a council run library so there'd be people who'd go in for a look whilst choosing books as well as people who'd gone specifically from the adverts / newsletter / flyers. The comments received were very encouraging. There was a difference in attitude between the "photographers" and the "public." Photographers were admiring the pictures for their technical and aesthetic attributes, the public "liked to see pretty pictures" and a common theme was about the titling of the images. Photographers accepted the old clichés of "Approaching Storm" whereas the public wanted to know where the picture was taken so they could go themselves whilst on holiday / walking the dog etc.. Titles like "Misty Pier" generated this kind or response.

I guess if you're trying to sell pictures then you've got to appeal to your market so soft focus, fluffy kittens will do better than more "photographically meaningful" pictures.

Anyway, rant over as it's coffee time...
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Charles Twist
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Post by Charles Twist » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:42 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hello Everyone,
Tricky to comment on this one without sounding more pretentious than I am already. In my experience in the North-East of England: yes, Joe Public wants pretty prints (nice colours and good composition) for his walls, but mainly he wants to show a particular scene (eg where he proposed to her). The problem with snappers and amateurs is that there are a lot of them and they tend to do things more cheaply (because it’s their hobby and funds are limited). The downside of professional pride is that you want a good (read expensive) frame for your picture and, if possible, loadsamoney. This is all the more true when you are wanting to derive an income (because you have to then take into account overheads and taxes). So you’re competing against guys churning out OK prints in OK frames for £50, who are happy to cover their costs and get a kick out of making a sale. The other competition is, oddly, professional galleries. If you sell your pictures through them, they ask for a commission; some ask for rent as well! So you’re pretty certain to be more expensive than the gallery owner, reducing the likelihood of a sale – either that or you make a very modest profit (and increase the likelihood of going bust). The way to go for landscape and urban photography of the chocolate box variety is to own your own gallery, preferably in a place where there is loads of tourist traffic, but maybe not somewhere where the rent is out of this world. Maybe Richard Childs would care to comment on his experience… As for art photography, there are public galleries around if they like you AND if you are prepared to wait 18 months. But again there are a lot of wannabe photographers around and people straight out of art school who are vying for the same spot.
Apart from that, I would say that LF does come with cachet. My standing is much improved because of the old hunk of metal. “Oh you must be a professional” or “you must know what you are doing”. Believe it or not, I get better treatment because of it.
Just my couple comments.
Best regards,
Charles

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Post by Brian E » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:11 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hi all

Is photography Art ? the big question after ' Whats the meaning of Life ??

For me photography IS art as defined by the fact that we CREATE a photograph because the view in front of us appeals to us. Alas to the public as most of them own a camera - NO

Can you sell your photographs ? Yes - As Art ? - Maybe

As in selling anything it is a business - It needs Marketing - but you will not sell anything if you give Joe Public what YOU feel they need - You will only sell if you supply what they need ( based on their feelings at or shortly before the sale).

Also you need to take into consideration the competition - Ikea/M & S/ et al. Large panoramic prints at £20.00. Take painters - Their work only sold for millions when some gallery decided to market them - the same with photography in the US - Gallery Marketing. Million Dollars for a 20x16 original print be AA.

Get known folks (by a good gallery) - do not expect to make a fortune whilst still alive. Art is in the eye of the beholder - so enjoy it - If you sell a print - enjoy it and buy some more film.

For your information - though now retired - I used to run my own photography business - Portraits & Weddings (please forgive me) - But I made a living - For instance I once won an award from Fuji for a Wedding Photograph - The couple depicted did NOT buy that photograph ( So What they purchased lots of others)

Brian
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uraniumnitrate
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Post by uraniumnitrate » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:03 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Yes sure, I do understand all of you and all aspects here which you you wrote about but still, how come that the US public is so different from the Europeans. It's hard to believe that everything hangs on the marketing it must be more to it.

What we are missing here in Europe? Is it something we do wrong? Could it be that we didn't learn the public well?

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Post by Apple » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:09 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

This will be a very simplified generalisation (so don't shoot me ;) ) but is it because the 'modern' US (i.e. not counting Native Americans) doesn't have any art 'history' like in Europe? They've only developed in the photographic age rather than having centuries of painters before so they maybe accept photography as normal instead of having to deal with it as "the new upstart" that "isn't proper art" as the snobbish critics keep banging on about in Europe...

If it's accepted as an art form more, it's more likely that the 'common person' can 'get into it.'
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uraniumnitrate
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Post by uraniumnitrate » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:26 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I'm not walking around with the gun. :D
But of course the American history had been photographed not painted as ours thats for sure.

So you could be very right there but again nowadays are our history also use the photographic image to record our everyday life. So we are getting or I could say that we are allready there.
The next logical step would be that we look after the problem in our education system in art.

Also educate our public as much as we can.

We must change the attitude of those who control the art world in Europe as you wrote here

"that "isn't proper art" as the snobbish critics keep banging on about in Europe... "

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Post by Charles Twist » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:05 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Hello,
Much of what we learn at school was cutting-edge more than 200 years ago. Sadly, that is about as far as you can go in the time allowed by the syllabus. To go beyond that requires specialisation. Photography is a new technology; the art that comes with it can either be the old representational stuff which conforms with what we learn at school or new-fangled stuff by a specialist. In broad terms, the masses will go with the former, the elite with the latter. I don't see how there cannot be a disagreement; I don't see how the two sides can possibly see eye to eye. So as a practicing photographer, you can choose who you would rather cater for - quite nice in a way - but you can't please everybody.
Best regards,
Charles

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