New v Second Hand Lenses

[Morrie]

Thanks for all your help with my previous query.

First problem solved - It has become a question of when & not if I move to large format.

Next question - lenses. Obviously there are some savings to be made with 2nd hand lenses - but I notice that most on sale are quite old - from late 1960s to early 1990s.

I appreciate the possible image differences between single & multicoated lenses and that the shutters will have had much less use than a 35mm slr.

Looking at the 4 main lens manufacturers only & appreciating that whilst model names might change, the basic lens often remains the same for many years:

Is buying an older version of a lens in a very good condition a wise idea.

Are there a certain dates or periods with individual manufacturers to avoid. How old is too old.

A 35mm illustration would be that whilst I'd be happy buying certain older Leica or Nikon lenses I would avoid Sigma.

Also is a shutter key a must or would I be able to mount lenses on panels without one.

Thanks again for your time & effort.

[Peter B]

The unhelpful truth is that there are many marvellous lenses of all ages hanging about in the big, wide world, but condition is a real biggy as repairing them might not be viable. All my LF gear has been bought secondhand, so no problem with that at all. I had read Kerry Thalmann's Future Classics article (linked below) and have bought 2 of them for much of my work, but that doesn't mean they are automatically better than others.

http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/future.htm

The truth is that Sironar S models and Symmar XLs are way beyond the vast majority of us, but there are also reasonable priced lenses in the same ranges, and the real deciding factor will be how big you want to blow the shots up afterwards?

[buze]

You can take excellent images with a hundred years old lens, some of them are pretty much legendary.
More moderns lens will give you contrastier images for sure, and probably a more standard and "safe" shutter, but then again for the price of a new lens, you could buy 20 old one and would more than probably end up with 5 good ones

I'm of the '20' kinds myself!

[lostlandsuk]

I've never bought a new lens.

150mm Symmar-S - £150
203mm Ektar - £45
90mm Angulon (late model - stops down to f45) - £100

The Symmar-S is a great lens - there are lots out there and very very reasonable - Thalmann says it equals the Sironar-S for sharpness, and to be honest I find mine quite wonderful - there's imperceptible flare and contrast is great; yes it suffers from Schneideritis, but that makes no difference. That being said, after having got the Ektar a couple of weeks ago, I would say that was even sharper with good contrast ,and only beset by flare when shooting in the vague direction of the sun. Quite knocked out by it actually. the image quality is different; if I can define the two I would say that the Symmar-S gives you the John Blakemore look, the Ektar the Adams look - don't ask me to quantify in a few words - I can't.
Got the Angulon this week - beautiful condition apart from 1 small, light scratch on the rear element - did a test neg this morning - developing it tonight . . can't wait.
I would say that the shutter is just as important - the Prontor on my Ektar is as accurrate as the Copal on the Symmar-S. The Angulon shutter is out by one stop across the range, and as such can be considered roughly accurate!
I would say shop around carefully - there are a lot of lenses out there, and many people will be happy to get you to part with extraordinary amounts of money!
I've had great service from Simon at Collectablecameras and the guys at Mr Cad and MXV.
The articles on the largeformatphotography.info site are very imformative as are Christ Perez's and Kerry Thalmanns.
Oh and I've never used a shutter key, you can manage it with a fingernail and a countertwist on the shutter as you are mounting it - been quite stable for me - the important point as with everything is not to overtighten.
Cheers and good luck
Phil

[Paul Mitchell]

All my lenses have been bought S/H and have had good and bad luck with my purchases. You are always taking more of a risk buying from internet auctions than buying from reputable outlets such as Ffordes and don't forget that fellow UKLF forum members often have equipment for sale.

[Dave Tolcher]

Hi, some early versions of newer lenses are best avoided with known problems. Best (?) recent example is the Schneider 80mm XL which has well documented problems from the first batches. Certainly until the recent price increases advice was to buy a new version of that lens to avoid risks.

Some older shutters are hard to service now with the lack of spare parts, I personally would think very hard before spending much money on anything other than a modern (mid 80s to current) Copal/Compur. It was around 50ukp to get a shutter serviced with parts on top last time I had one done.

I wouldnt be without a shutter key and have one in the bag and a spare at home. So cheap - I have never perfected the finger/twist technique

If you have decided primarily what you will photograph and what degree of movement you are likely to need then some older lenses (esp wideangle) will rule themselves out e.g. the 90mm f6.8 angulon in a 00 shutter has almost no movement capability on 5x4. I would put most money into a good / new / newest wideangle in the 80 / 90mm / 110mm range. Rest are less of an issue for quality and coverage and real bargains can be had in the 135-210 range because they are common and do the job well from any manufacturer in the last 50 years.

[lostlandsuk]

Never having had to change a lens on a board in the field I find twisty fingernails works well for me
The Angulon btw is a great lens for non-movements in a trying to lessen the load sort of way and the later ones in Synchro Compur 0's will cover 5x4 no probs.
Dave has a point about shutters though, but that being said, I had a Pentax 6x7 that would only work properly for the brief time I had it, in a B/mirror up/remove lens cap/count/replace lens cap/ way, and some of those frames are the best I've ever done - maybe it was the desperation
I still think there's a lot to be said for older lenses - just check out some of the american sites. Take time to research and don't be put off by older optics - the results can be superb.
P

[timparkin]

I bought a second hand schneider APO Symmar 210 from ebay for £30 as my first lens and took five or six pictures with it which looked OK to me.. However comparing them with the pictures I from my modern lenses the difference is readily apparent. This is especially so with the Sironar S which is just astonishingly sharp. I would say most modern lenses are very similar and I would be hard pushed to tell them apart (with the exception of the 150 Sironar S which is ultra sharp and the Nikkor 500 T-ED which is fairly low contrast and a little soft). Some older lenses will be just as sharp as modern lenses but there will be the occasional 'reject' lens sold on ebay.

I would recommend getting at least one reasonable modern lens to act as a reference to which you can compare other lenses.. Then if you get a second hand lens and it is substantially worse you know to get rid of it.

Tim

p.s. I bought my lenses with reference to Thalmann's future classics website

[richard littlewood]

A lot of 150's are very sharp and often much sharper than wide angle or proper telephoto lenses, and some of the old angulons and super angulons vary for what ever reason quite a lot. If you get a good looking symmar s or a rodenstock off e-bay they will spoil you in terms of comparing their sharpness with an awful lot of other lenses.

[Thingy]

I've just bought a secondhand Nikkor 180mm in mint condition. It is somewhat lighter than my current Nikkor 210mm portrait lens!