Another new one

[DJ]

It seems this is the done thing, so here goes..

I'm Darren Joy, and I'm also pretty new at this Large Format malarkey. I'm a child of the digital age, but that shiny expensive DSLR is sitting in it's bag collecting dust most of the time, as I have so much fun with the LF gear... and I crave *big* prints. I am sorry to admit, I hardly seem to get out and actually take pictures much any more, seems I never have any free time, but I make an effort when I take holiday to go do some photography.

Anyway, I started by buying a big heavy monorail from Ebay to see if I could get on with LF, I decided it was fun, but lugging the thing around wasn't, so I got myself a Tachihara 45GF which is much easier to carry. I have two lenses, a Rodenstock 150mm 5.6 which I got with the monorail, and a shiny new Scheider 80mm 4.5 Super-Symmar XL. I prefer colour transparency but I've recently bought myself a box of B+W film to try as well.

My intention is scanning my transparencies and printing digitally, however I'm not having a great deal of luck getting good scans. Maybe I'm expecting too much. I have an Epson 4990 and I've tried custom profiling, and gone through the whole wet-mounting saga, but I still can't seem to get accurate scans of my trannies.

Favourite photo destination is the American South West. I absolutely love it there, and I'm rather annoyed that these stupid baggage restrictions have prevented me from going again this year. I've only taken the LF gear there once, but hardly used it unfortunately.

Well, there you go, that's me.

[Apple]

Welcome to the crowd, Darren.

If you need scanning & profiling info - the resident guru is Joanna but others are doing it as well.

We haven't quite managed to stretch as far as the States for a workshop yet but you never know

Andrew

[Charles Twist]

Do they know what tea-rooms are State-side?
Other than that, why not stretch the workshops further afield but avoiding the planes problem? Ferry from Newcastle to Norway would be a good start. Eurostar to Paris and the south of France not bad either.
Charles

[Joanna Carter]

Hi Darren, welcome to the Tearoom Appreciation Society incorporating the UKLFPG

When you say you can't get accurate scans, could you be more precise ?

What software/hardware are you using to profile your monitor/scanner/printer ?

Do you use a scanner target for the type(s) of film you are scanning ?

Assuming you are using Photoshop, what is your workflow for handling assigning and converting profiles ?

[DJ]

Hi Darren, welcome to the Tearoom Appreciation Society incorporating the UKLFPG

Oh this is getting better by the minute, my other favourite hobby, tea!

When you say you can't get accurate scans, could you be more precise?

Well I don't know that I can say they're not accurate, just that I'm not happy with them. Not happy with the colour, and not happy that they're sharp enough. Maybe I'm just expecting too much.

The film holder that ships with the 4990 is a waste of time, I'm always getting Newton rings, so I had to resort to fluid mounting, and it's such a pain I've only bothered a couple of times.
I've calibrated the scanner by making up a series of shims to find the optimum focus point, which for mine is really close to the glass, so I'm using a 0.5mm shim and scanning Mylar down to get the film at the optimum point. I'm just using picture glass to mount on.

What software/hardware are you using to profile your monitor/scanner/printer ?

I have a Gretag Eye One Spectro, Eye One IO and ProfileMaker Pro 5.07. I also have another Eye-One Photo setup, but that'll be going on Ebay now I got the other one. I pretty confident it's a good profile, target notwithstanding.

Do you use a scanner target for the type(s) of film you are scanning ?

I have a couple of Kodak IT8 targets, one reflective and one transparency. However the trannie one is 35mm, not a 5x4, which of course means it's batch measured not hand measured. I've looked at 5x4 versions, and I understand you have one of Wolf Faust's 5x4 targets, I've considered one but not got around to ordering. I'd love to go the whole hog and get a Hutcheson, but they're so expensive for something that would see so little use How do you rate the Wolf target?

Assuming you are using Photoshop, what is your workflow for handling assigning and converting profiles ?

I use ProPhotoRGB as my working space, and do everything in 16bit/channel. I usually scan the trannie and manually assign the scanner colourspace and convert to ProPhotoRGB when loading into Photoshop.

[Joanna Carter]

Well I don't know that I can say they're not accurate, just that I'm not happy with them. Not happy with the colour, and not happy that they're sharp enough. Maybe I'm just expecting too much.

As to colour, good transparency profiles make an enormous difference; more on that later. As to sharpness, I used the standard 4x5 holder, but am surprised that you had trouble with Newton rings as the holder keeps the film well clear of the glass.

I've calibrated the scanner by making up a series of shims to find the optimum focus point, which for mine is really close to the glass, so I'm using a 0.5mm shim and scanning Mylar down to get the film at the optimum point. I'm just using picture glass to mount on.

This is something I never bothered with, but found that the scans were "acceptably" sharp, being able to easily support a 40"x32" print at normal viewing distance.

I have a couple of Kodak IT8 targets, one reflective and one transparency. However the trannie one is 35mm, not a 5x4, which of course means it's batch measured not hand measured. I've looked at 5x4 versions, and I understand you have one of Wolf Faust's 5x4 targets, I've considered one but not got around to ordering. I'd love to go the whole hog and get a Hutcheson, but they're so expensive for something that would see so little use How do you rate the Wolf target?

Now this really is the cause of your colour matching problems

Wolf Faust's targets really do make a difference and I have been more than pleased with the results, especially since I am only using the Monaco EZ-Color system. There is a significant difference in the correction between the Velvia 100 target and the Provia target; it is quite frightening to see the image as it appears after scanning but before assigning the profile.

I use ProPhotoRGB as my working space, and do everything in 16bit/channel. I usually scan the trannie and manually assign the scanner colourspace and convert to ProPhotoRGB when loading into Photoshop.

I too use ProPhotoRGB as it is the widest gamut of all the profiles I have found. Just one more question: have you ensured that you have turned off colour management in your scanner software ?

[Ole Tjugen]

Other than that, why not stretch the workshops further afield but avoiding the planes problem? Ferry from Newcastle to Norway would be a good start.

I second that motion, and would be happy to show you around Bergen!

On the scanning subject, I've been fighting with an Agfa Duoscan for a while. It's good enough for a rough scan - or so I thought until a friend scanned a 5x7" slide for me on his Imacon: http://www.bruraholo.no/images/Lodalen_GF.jpg was the result I couldn't get myself.

The valley in that picture was also the site of my 2005 LF gathering, which had participants from Norway, Germany, Sweden, UK, and USA!

[DJ]

As to colour, good transparency profiles make an enormous difference; more on that later. As to sharpness, I used the standard 4x5 holder, but am surprised that you had trouble with Newton rings as the holder keeps the film well clear of the glass.

Some of my transparencies are not entirely flat. The ones I've had done in this country are pretty good, but I still get Newton rings on some of those, the ones I had done when I was in Utah aren't too flat at all, and they've been a pain. I've found that the long scanning time of a 4x5 at high resolution causes the the lamp heat up the film and bow it in the middle, which allows it to touch the glass, creating Newton rings.

All this stems from one image I really want to get scanned well, it's going to be hard to re-produce, and it's underexposed in the foreground, so it will need a bit of tinkering, but I really like it and want to use it!

This is something I never bothered with, but found that the scans were "acceptably" sharp, being able to easily support a 40"x32" print at normal viewing distance.

From reading various forums, there's quite a bit of variance in the optimal focus point from unit to unit, so much that in the newer models ( 700 and 750 ) the film holders have adjustable feet to allow you adjust the height. Mine was really close to the glass 0.5mm, others have found theirs to be 1.5mm or more. I tested mine from 0.5mm up to 1.5mm and there was quite a difference in sharpness across such a small distance.

Now this really is the cause of your colour matching problems

Wolf Faust's targets really do make a difference and I have been more than pleased with the results, especially since I am only using the Monaco EZ-Color system. There is a significant difference in the correction between the Velvia 100 target and the Provia target; it is quite frightening to see the image as it appears after scanning but before assigning the profile.

I suspected as much, I've just ordered a Velvia RVP target from Wolf

Should ship on Monday, I'll have to wet-mount it to do the profiling, which should eliminate any caste added by the extra glass as well. Finally having a method to scan these things might actually inspire me to go out and take a few more

I too use ProPhotoRGB as it is the widest gamut of all the profiles I have found. Just one more question: have you ensured that you have turned off colour management in your scanner software ?

Yup, all off.

[Joanna Carter]

Some of my transparencies are not entirely flat. The ones I've had done in this country are pretty good, but I still get Newton rings on some of those, the ones I had done when I was in Utah aren't too flat at all, and they've been a pain. I've found that the long scanning time of a 4x5 at high resolution causes the the lamp heat up the film and bow it in the middle, which allows it to touch the glass, creating Newton rings.

I must say, I have never found a problem with lamp heat, as the lamp in the Epson is not known for getting hot Now just for an idea, how about this : mount the trannie emulsion down (this is what I do) and reverse it in Photoshop. If the curling is still too great, hold it down with a piece of anti-Newton or even non-reflecting glass; this means that the glass is on the lamp side of the trannie rather than on the sensor side. Therefore you should get a flat(ter) trannie without wet mounting.

All this stems from one image I really want to get scanned well, it's going to be hard to re-produce, and it's underexposed in the foreground, so it will need a bit of tinkering, but I really like it and want to use it!

If you really get stuck, I now have a V700 and would be willing to have a go, if you would entrust the trannie to me.

I suspected as much, I've just ordered a Velvia RVP target from Wolf

Should ship on Monday, I'll have to wet-mount it to do the profiling, which should eliminate any caste added by the extra glass as well. Finally having a method to scan these things might actually inspire me to go out and take a few more

Try the technique I suggest as well and let us know if it makes any difference. I hope you will be as pleased as I am with the results of Wolf's targets.

BTW, whereabouts are you in the country and are you coming to Glencoe ?

[DJ]

I must say, I have never found a problem with lamp heat, as the lamp in the Epson is not known for getting hot Now just for an idea, how about this : mount the trannie emulsion down (this is what I do) and reverse it in Photoshop. If the curling is still too great, hold it down with a piece of anti-Newton or even non-reflecting glass; this means that the glass is on the lamp side of the trannie rather than on the sensor side. Therefore you should get a flat(ter) trannie without wet mounting.

I have tried mounting the trannies emulsion down to eliminate the Newton rings, and it does work to a certain extent. For some reason, which completely escapes me now, probably something I read somewhere, I decided I wasn't going to do this. For the life of me I can't remember why , but I decided I would persevere with scanning them the right way up. Perhaps I'll try again.

I never did find a source for anti-newton glass that was reasonably cheap.

If you really get stuck, I now have a V700 and would be willing to have a go, if you would entrust the trannie to me.

Very kind. I'm half considering just getting one myself tbh, and putting the 4990 on fleabay.

Try the technique I suggest as well and let us know if it makes any difference. I hope you will be as pleased as I am with the results of Wolf's targets.

I'm looking forward to it arriving, as I'm going to need to do some scanning and I want these old ones finally done and out of the way!

BTW, whereabouts are you in the country and are you coming to Glencoe ?

I'm from the flatlands of Norfolk. Sadly, I won't be able to attend the Glencoe workshop, though I'm actually going there myself just before you all do, in late September. If only I'd known about this group before I booked all my holiday I could have attended. I'll keep my eye open for locations for you all when I'm there