RIP

A place to talk about photography, the meaning of life and anything that doesn't quite fit elsewhere
dave_whatever
Forum Hero
Posts: 614
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:36 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: RIP

Post by dave_whatever » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:09 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

I think the Velvia news probably had an effect, as did the demise of quickload a few years ago - basically I suspect the fairweather quickload-only crew probably sold up and bought D800s. The other factor is when you consider some big and influential names like Joe Cornish seem to have gone totally digital at least for commercial work, that's bound to have an knock-on effect too, particularly if we assume there are (due to his considerable influence) a fairly big chunk of the LF community who aped Joe's gear choices.

The bust-up between IanG and the admins/moderators a while back also could have put a lot of people off - a shame because I value Ian's contributions on other forums, and although I suspect he meant well I do think that whole thing was a little misjudged, shame the forum apparently didn't have the depth/robustness to see its way through that episode.

More specifically on this forum I think in the past a few users have been a little too cliquey and vocal/repetitive/overbearing in advocation of big-money cameras and solutions to various problems which I suspect may have off-put a lot of potential new users. I don't see them posting anymore though, so maybe its time for a renaissance? I think there's more than enough LF users in the UK to make this a vibrant, diverse and lively online community. The only difference now compared to a few years ago is a lot of people use Twitter for the type of small-group chitchat that used to go on here - probably not a bad thing to avoid the perception of cliqueyness, but not helpful for the outward appearance of post-turnover and traffic.

Worryingly I also heard from a few sources that when new users attempt to sign-up they end up waiting weeks/months to get their accounts approved, if at all. Seems a bit crap to me - if whoever's job that is doesn't have time anymore or whatever, then they should hand it over to someone else, or ultimately the forum is doomed without new users.

vanman
Forum Hero
Posts: 117
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:25 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: Staffordshire

Re: RIP

Post by vanman » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:25 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Dave,
That is such a constructive post.
I really struggle to believe that some forum members might have given up LF owing to the demise of Fuji Velvia. I don't do Photoshop but as I understand it you can produce the Velvia "effect" without using Velvia film. Why would you want to scan it anyway when if the captured image is worth printing you wouldn't want to send it to a professional printers?

If Joe Cornish couldn't see the massive advantage of using LF gear with all the movements available (front tilt, rear tilt, rear rise, front rise, front swing / rear swing, back & rear shift, and the advantages that I havn't thought of) to the photographer for landscape photography perhaps he should have investigated more practical cameras that Ebonies! Perhaps his "fans / mimics" should have bought, and read, a decent book on the use of view/field cameras. I refuse to believe that a "big chunk of the LF community" were influenced by his methods or his equipment. He rearly even gets a mention on other forums.

Ian is highly knowledgable and his contributions are missed. The whole episode seemed to revolve around one member from the Southport area insisting that her name should be hilighted in red and her general attitude.

Yeah. I really can't see what the maker of the camera that you are using (in LF especially) has to do with your images, as long as the movements for the style of picture that you are making are correct. I would be reluctant to try to capture a landscape with my 1926/ 1927 Ansco as the camera has no front tilt (it is ideal for portrature though). My 1950's B&J is ideal for landscapes, not to mention my Norma and the Wista 45DX. I suspect that Joe might have found certain advantages from publisising the Ebony brand.

You're comments on potential members being rejected/messed about are confimed throughout the LF community on other web sites.
If the moderators can't sort these minor problems out just shut the site down, by the number of recent posts it won't be missed!.

Also abandon the silly/stupid practise of hilighting selected members names in red, it's not a major issue but if it p....es people off just consider if it's worth doing on a forum that is struggling anyway?

I wasn't going to post again on this subject but this incredably constructive post egged me on!
Merry Christmas,
Vanman.

Dave Tolcher

Re: RIP

Post by Dave Tolcher » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:57 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

As a mod rather than admin (I'm green :lol: ) I was prompted to try to address the issues raised. I am trying to raise the debate with the admin and moderators to try to establish a way forward that addresses the concerns. I am not having much success at the moment and will perhaps give benefit of the doubt to the season. I hope that in the new year we can get going again and lay some of the old ghosts to rest and become inclusive.

Merry Xmas to you all !

Dave

Andrew Plume
Forum Hero
Posts: 617
Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 3:28 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: North Oxon

Re: RIP

Post by Andrew Plume » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:29 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

vanman wrote:I've got to support Andrews suggestion for Foma film. OK, it's only available in mono but once you learn to handle it it's wonderful. Bloody hard to find in the UK but there are other options.
Vanman.

thx VM

actually available right now at S'print:

http://www.silverprint.co.uk/ProductByG ... PrGrp=2211

regards

andrew

vanman
Forum Hero
Posts: 117
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:25 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: Staffordshire

Re: RIP

Post by vanman » Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:19 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Thanks Andrew but I prefer 200 and use 5x7 as well as 4x5 & 8x10. I would also suspect that their stock has been hanging around for a while now. Foma Film in Norway did contact me to let me know that they were expecting fresh stocks in the near future.
The freezer is running low, in fact if it hadn't been such a lousey summer I would probably have run out by now.
Best wishes,
Vanman

Andrew Plume
Forum Hero
Posts: 617
Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 3:28 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: North Oxon

Re: RIP

Post by Andrew Plume » Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:41 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00

vanman wrote:Thanks Andrew but I prefer 200 and use 5x7 as well as 4x5 & 8x10. I would also suspect that their stock has been hanging around for a while now. Foma Film in Norway did contact me to let me know that they were expecting fresh stocks in the near future.
The freezer is running low, in fact if it hadn't been such a lousey summer I would probably have run out by now.
Best wishes,
Vanman

thx VM

..........from what I've seen on the 'SP' site recently, their 100iso is fresh stock

best

andrew

Andrew Plume
Forum Hero
Posts: 617
Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 3:28 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: North Oxon

Re: RIP

Post by Andrew Plume » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:21 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Dave

as 'VM' has very recently said, there's some decent content in what you've said

"I think the Velvia news probably had an effect, as did the demise of quickload a few years ago - basically I suspect the fairweather quickload-only crew probably sold up and bought D800s. The other factor is when you consider some big and influential names like Joe Cornish seem to have gone totally digital at least for commercial work, that's bound to have an knock-on effect too, particularly if we assume there are (due to his considerable influence) a fairly big chunk of the LF community who aped Joe's gear choices'

although Velvia has gone, it's 'media portrayed effect', per se, was imo almost at a brainwashing stage', - I long ago stopped even thumbing a copy of 'AP' but whenever I did, it was Velvia, Velvia and more bloody Velvia pouring out of the pages, it's influence became way way too dominant

Joe Cornish, yes he has had a clear impact on the LF community and was also an ardent user of said Velvia. No doubt at all, Joe is a terrific photographer, some would say that he is a 'Calendar Artist' and I wouldn't disagree with that. A lot of his images have been representative of a take on the f45 School, being sharp from where you're standing right to the horizon. That's fine, I have no issue with that but that's it and little alternatives have been contemplated (in his seen work). After all, he has to earn a living. Of course part and parcel of this, is that Joe used the famed Ebony line of Cameras

"More specifically on this forum I think in the past a few users have been a little too cliquey and vocal/repetitive/overbearing in advocation of big-money cameras and solutions to various problems which I suspect may have off-put a lot of potential new users........."

and this has as you've said partly been the problem, Ebony Cameras have been seen to be the best and as such one has to have them. Now I've never picked one up but 'Vanman' assures me that they're pretty heavy, in fact very heavy compared to others in the wooden Field line. Your Wista DX for instance is very light, possibly not what's needed in a raging gale but cheap in comparison. I cannot be sure but clearly there has been scope for new members possibly feeling disadvantaged and out of the loop if they haven't been using an Ebony

this Forum does not (know) feel that it should compete with the significantly larger 'LFPF' and why should it? Both forums should be able to stand on their own. For anyone on here, who may have felt in the past disadvantaged by not having an Ebony, take a look at some of the threads, particularly 'show us your Camera', there are plenty of folks on there using other kit

"The bust-up between IanG and the admins/moderators a while back also could have put a lot of people off - a shame because I value Ian's contributions on other forums, and although I suspect he meant well I do think that whole thing was a little misjudged, shame the forum apparently didn't have the depth/robustness to see its way through that episode"

I'm not going to comment regarding Ian's past involvement (or indeed mine or or around that time), this Forum has to move on

Yes, there should be enough users in the UK to do as you have said etc etc, if it's easy to post ones work on Flickr, then for instance there's no reason why it shouldn't be posted on here

"Worryingly I also heard from a few sources that when new users attempt to sign-up they end up waiting weeks/months to get their accounts approved, if at all. Seems a bit crap to me - if whoever's job that is doesn't have time anymore or whatever, then they should hand it over to someone else, or ultimately the forum is doomed without new users"

New members and delayed time in waiting to be 'signed up' - you're dead right here, sadly it's a very well known fact

regards

andrew

Andrew Plume
Forum Hero
Posts: 617
Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 3:28 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: North Oxon

Re: RIP

Post by Andrew Plume » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:35 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Vanman, thanks for again adding to this discussion

If Joe Cornish couldn't see the massive advantage of using LF gear with all the movements available (front tilt, rear tilt, rear rise, front rise, front swing / rear swing, back & rear shift, and the advantages that I havn't thought of) to the photographer for landscape photography perhaps he should have investigated more practical cameras that Ebonies! Perhaps his "fans / mimics" should have bought, and read, a decent book on the use of view/field cameras. I refuse to believe that a "big chunk of the LF community" were influenced by his methods or his equipment. He rearly even gets a mention on other forums.

Unless, I'm way off the mark, Joe's work really wasn't based at all on the use of 'movements of LF cameras'. His Ebony was the basic Robert White 'specifivally made for RW model' which was a fixed non-foldable one, ideal for Joe's work in that he could very quickly set up and take the image. No great need for movements there. Before that he used a Horseman 45FA (or whatever it's called), which is basically a mf\4x5 Camera with few movements only

regards

andrew

Dave Tolcher

Re: RIP

Post by Dave Tolcher » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:48 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Good input and discussion. I feel a need to put a bit of a counter viewpoint as I am a Joe/Ebony/Velvia baby boomer :shock: Different hilltop but no less rewarding or enjoyable IMVHO.

Joe currently uses a Linhof Techno and relies on movements for his trademark front to back sharpness even with the IQ180. He doesnt focus stack as many of the MF digi users have to. He always understood the advantages of movements although I understand that the seen work appeared to limit that to tilt/rise/fall. He is a very technically accomplished photographer and fully understands the gamut of possibilities of a LF camera. I have only seen him out with a modified 45SU although the report he did in PP all those years ago for a RW45 was what inspired me to get into LF in the first place. The realisation that you could have access to LF cheaply and much more easily than the Pentax 6x7 that I used to lug about. Quickload (and readyload) was really important to me starting despite its malignment here, TMax100 in Readyload and Acros, Velvia, Provia, Astia or 160S in QL. Quite a few of my friends probably wouldnt have started LF without that convenience either. I shot Bergger FP200 in my B & W time.

I thinks its easy to forget that in the late 90s when he was published a lot in the popular press and an Ebony era started that there were no alternatives if you wanted a non folder. The advantages of non folding camera for landscape use I really bought it, tried both and stuck with the non folder. Did I emulate joe or did I buy the only camera available ? There were no Asian clones of the Ebony cameras at that point, or if there were they werent really visible (internet in late 90s..... not what it is today). In America would there be bitching about Jack Dykinga and that 'every' landscape photographer has an Arca ? The metal cameras are far more rigid, (give you frostbite) and flexible, other woodies are lighter and some oldies are just enjoyably idosynchratic. Ebonies are the apex of wooden cameras technology but they arent necessarily the 'best' camera. David Ward is the other big influence on the LF community through his stewardship of Light & Land and many folk have Linhof TK45s as a result, I would say a 50:50 split among the folk that I know.

Velvia 50.... the marmite film. It is unique and cant be emulated digitally. Technically you can create the curves, contrast and colour anomalies pretty close but that misses the point. You cant PS in something that is there. Under some circumstances V50 sprinkles some magic on the recorded image - as does some B & W film/developer combinations. You just cant emulate that pp. Remember Record Rapid and a light touch selenium split tone - can you emulate that digitally ? What about Platinum or some of the other alternative processes ? I happen to like the 'magic' part of V50 and enjoy being out in the landscape when it does it. I dont like it for many other things and sadly there is no alternative without other issues. It does box your creatiuvity into specific times of day, lighting and subjects and that is bad. It also becomes tiresome if you just see one V50 special after another (I feel the same about HDR and big stopper and.... ) Used well & sparingly it is stunning. For a colour landscape photographer there are now better alternatives for the other 99% of the time that V50 wasnt the right choice so those who stick with it for the 1% will leave the format unless they embrace B & W or colour neg.

On what you do with the image, it has long and universally been accepted that the best way to print from colour is via a digital intermediary. Especially from slides its the only way to tame the contrast increase of something like cibachrome. The fact that everyone scans the image and then prints is not diminishing the quality of the output or small minding the process compared to 'real' photographers. Its easy and cheap and a lot of people do it, its as discouraging to people to run it down as to say that the only cameras for LF are ebonies. Its state of the art for colour these days and you still get superior results to any digital capture (IMO).

LF photography is a broad church albeit with some 'hot spots' of interest, no one has a right to claim to be on a pedestal. Needs to be viewed that way, I for one float around as my interests change.

gary mulder
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:33 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Re: RIP

Post by gary mulder » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:35 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

My work is printed optical in my own dark room. Color and B&W.
Do I belong here or not ?

Dave Tolcher

Re: RIP

Post by Dave Tolcher » Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:16 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

gary mulder wrote:My work is printed optical in my own dark room. Color and B&W.
Do I belong here or not ?
Rhetorical question I hope ! Of course..... ! :lol:

Sal Santamaura
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:40 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: San Clemente, California, USA

Re: RIP

Post by Sal Santamaura » Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:22 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Dave Tolcher wrote:...Joe...always understood the advantages of movements although I understand that the seen work appeared to limit that to tilt/rise/fall...
Leaving out what? Swing/shift [cross]? Those are hardly ever needed for landscape work.

Dave Tolcher

Re: RIP

Post by Dave Tolcher » Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:26 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Sal Santamaura wrote:
Dave Tolcher wrote:...Joe...always understood the advantages of movements although I understand that the seen work appeared to limit that to tilt/rise/fall...
Leaving out what? Swing/shift [cross]? Those are hardly ever needed for landscape work.
Yes, although a lot of his recent work has been stitched.

vanman
Forum Hero
Posts: 117
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:25 am Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: Staffordshire

Re: RIP

Post by vanman » Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:05 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

Dave,
Just a suggestion, what about splitting the forum? One side for those of us who still use traditional methods, darkrooms, enlargers, contact printing, wet plate alternative printing methods and vintage lenses.
The other side for the digi freaks and those who worship at the alter of Photoshop?

Vanman.

Andrew Plume
Forum Hero
Posts: 617
Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 3:28 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00
Location: North Oxon

Re: RIP

Post by Andrew Plume » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:15 pm Etc/GMT-1+01:00

gary mulder wrote:My work is printed optical in my own dark room. Color and B&W.
Do I belong here or not ?

sounds like you do

andrew

Post Reply