Tips for a first time slide user?

[Mike M]

I usually shoot B+W which I develop and enlarge myself but I must of had a bump to the head at some point because all of a sudden I have the urge to shoot some colour.
This is what I have armed myself with so far -
Velvia 50, Velvia 100 and a box of Provia 100.
Filters - ND grads (soft) from .3 to .9 and a polariser.

Film -
I know I could of made it easier on myself by using colour neg but thats for wimps
Joanna mentioned in another post that different slide films have different exposure latitudes (thats the first thing I've learnt).
So when people say that a film has a 4 stop latitude is that measured from black to white (eg zone 1 to 10)? If so then how do you find and meter a highlight area that you want to keep detail in (eg zone 7)?

Metering -
I use a Sekonic 758L spot meter and I was planning on using the average function.
eg Meter the important area of a scene and average it, then check that detail in the dark areas are not blocked by placing them -2 stops under, then use grad ND's to lower the highlight area so the brightest area is no more than 2 stops over. Does this sound about right?

I'd appreciate any comments or advice with this.

Thanks
Mike

[Joanna Carter]

Hi Mike

So when people say that a film has a 4 stop latitude is that measured from black to white (eg zone 1 to 10)?

I reckon that 4 stops is from the deepest shadow that has some detail to the brightest highlight that has some detail.

If so then how do you find and meter a highlight area that you want to keep detail in (eg zone 7)?

Well, I use a Minolta FlashMeter VI which has a neat feature which allows you to enter the range of the film as plus and minus figures; then it allows you to take a first reading as shadow, highlight or average and set the range allowed from that point.

Now, I know that your meter is different but, I will use this principle to describe how I would meter a scene:

I would start by doing a quick metering of the darkest and lightest points in the scene and noting the difference in stops. e.g. Because I tend to use aperture priority readings to allow me to determine depth of field, This would give me example readings of 4secs for shadow and 1/30sec for highlight - 7 stops and a "average" or "proper" exposure of 1sec.

Assuming you are using Velvia 100 with a range of 4 stops, this means that you would need a 3 stop (0.9) grad filter, although this assumes that the bright spot is easily separable from the rest of the picture by a straight line

I use a Sekonic 758L spot meter and I was planning on using the average function.
eg Meter the important area of a scene and average it, then check that detail in the dark areas are not blocked by placing them -2 stops under, then use grad ND's to lower the highlight area so the brightest area is no more than 2 stops over. Does this sound about right?

The principle is right but I find it easier to start by measuring the darkest area and simply add 2 stops to find the correct exposure, adding as many stops of ND grad as required to bring the highlights into range.

Of course, if the bright areas are in the middle of an image, sometimes your only choice might be to take the shot at another time of day or accept a compromise on blocking/blowing.

Provided you can still get it from Robert White, Astia 100F can help in that it seems to have a range of 6 stops, although the colours are wonderfully natural and may not suit someone who wants the saturated look of the Velvias.

[Tim Myers]

Also remember that most people rate 'Old' Velvia 50 as ISO 40 or even 32.

I've not exhausted my stock of Old 50 (really should make space for food in the freezer!) so can't comment on the new!

[Tim Myers]

Some more thoughts...

Velvia and Provia will push/pull by a stop without any bother, so if you have a second sheet from your shot and the exposure isn't quite to your liking you can compentaste a little when it comes to development (Joanna - following your lead can we call this 'soup time' now?).

I have a Sekonic 608 which should be very similar to your meter. I keep ISO1 set to the speed I'm rating the film at, and ISO2 to this speed -2 stops (when working with Velvia)

I always meter in EV mode, working through the scene, and from these readings I make my choice of where I wish to place the neutral tone.

Keeping the ISO2 set to -2 stops lets me take a reading from a highlight, hit the ISO2 button and find the exposure that would just keep detail in that region. You can conversely set the ISO2 button to +2 stops and find the exposure which would just keep detail in the shadows.

[Jonathan Perkins]

I use the same meter as Mike, and started off using the mode where you take up to 10 spot readings which are displayed on a linear scale. Then adjust the midtone setting to slide all the measured points up and down the scale, to best fit between the upper and lower limit markers you programmed for the film you are using (and you can see how much grad filters you need for the highlights that exceed the upper marker). Easier to do than explain, but I think its probably very similar to the features on Joanna's meter.

Whilst that worked, I found I wasn't really "learning" how to evaluate the lighting of a scene in my mind - I was relying on the meter to do too much of the work. I also found that the disconnect between the moment those readings were taken to fitting them to the upper & lower limits on the meter meant I no longer related them to real things in the scene - perhaps thats just my memory failing!

My current technique, based on a days workshop with JC, is to choose the midtone by looking at the scene first without the meter. Then I spot meter that point and switch the meter into relative EV. I can then scan round the scene and through the spot meter window I see a live display of EV +/- from my chosen midtone. I can easily see how much filtering is needed to hold highlights and what shadow detail will be lost, and your brain is constantly mapping these values to actual parts of the scene. I found at first I had to iterate this a few times as I wasn't very good at choosing the midtone. With practise I found this improves and my exposures are becoming much more consistent, and I am starting to be able to judge lighting dynamic range by eye (although I won't be parted from my meter just yet )

The only other comment I would make on your equipment list is that you might want to add a .9 and .6 hard grad - I find the soft grads way too soft for 5x4; they're not so useful as on smaller formats.

[Mike M]

My current technique, based on a days workshop with JC, is to choose the midtone by looking at the scene first without the meter. Then I spot meter that point and switch the meter into relative EV. I can then scan round the scene and through the spot meter window I see a live display of EV +/- from my chosen midtone. I can easily see how much filtering is needed to hold highlights and what shadow detail will be lost, and your brain is constantly mapping these values to actual parts of the scene. I found at first I had to iterate this a few times as I wasn't very good at choosing the midtone. With practise I found this improves and my exposures are becoming much more consistent, and I am starting to be able to judge lighting dynamic range by eye (although I won't be parted from my meter just yet )

This seems to me to be the best way of reading a scene but I seem to have a real problem in seeing a midtone when it comes to colour, with B+W I can look at a scene and easily place zone anywhere I like.

Everyone seems to have their own way of metering a scene but I guess it doesn't matter how you get there, its the end result that counts.

Thankyou all for your responces, you've given me alot to think about.

Oh one other thing......Can someone please order some decent weather!!

[timparkin]

My current technique, based on a days workshop with JC, is to choose the midtone by looking at the scene first without the meter. Then I spot meter that point and switch the meter into relative EV. I can then scan round the scene and through the spot meter window I see a live display of EV +/- from my chosen midtone. I can easily see how much filtering is needed to hold highlights and what shadow detail will be lost, and your brain is constantly mapping these values to actual parts of the scene. I found at first I had to iterate this a few times as I wasn't very good at choosing the midtone. With practise I found this improves and my exposures are becoming much more consistent, and I am starting to be able to judge lighting dynamic range by eye (although I won't be parted from my meter just yet )

This seems to me to be the best way of reading a scene but I seem to have a real problem in seeing a midtone when it comes to colour, with B+W I can look at a scene and easily place zone anywhere I like.
/...

Hi..

I'd go with EV if you possibly can as you start to learn about what brightness you are really working with.. I bought a pentax especially to make it easier to work with EV only ..

Jonthan is totally right with the way to calculate exposure. Work out a tone you want - I use a modified zone chart on my pentax

http://www.timparkin.co.uk/blog/926815673944184070

and then work away from that point to check highlights and shadows are OK and that other parts of the scene are placed at brightnesses you could expect..


e.g. I might be taking a picture of the limestone at Malham and know I want the stone at roughly +1-+1.5 .. I will then check the clouds to make sure they are at +2-+2.3 at their brightest.. If they are over then I'll add graddage to bring them back.. If the sun is in the shot, I'll work out how far from the sun I want a nice yellow colour and place that at approx +3 (reds yellows have more range than blues - +3 is transparent with yellows, +2 is transparent with cyan -- long conversatoin with Mr Cornish about this one)..

Now I'll check the shadows to work out if the picture will work .. If there is too much blocky shadows around the bottom of the picture, I might add an 0.5 stop grad over the rest of the picture and increase the exposure by 0.5

The blog post I made was done with some testing, talking to Mr Cornish, David Ward, Nigel Halliwell and a few others.. In my experience so far it's pretty accurate although to get the full range shown in the sticker you need to drum scan..

Tim

[Jonathan Perkins]

but I seem to have a real problem in seeing a midtone when it comes to colour

Mike, if its any use I find shaded grass or wood to be a good starting point, although I expect your B+W experience will translate across nicely.

reds yellows have more range than blues - +3 is transparent with yellows, +2 is transparent with cyan

Aha, thanks Tim thats very useful to know.

[Emmanuel Bigler]

Having exposed colour slides in 35mm and 6x6 for about 30 years on an amateur basis, without the aid of any spotmeter at all, I was kind of naive with respect to what should be the proper metering method for large format slides.
Sure, a first-time user of large format slides should be careful, taking into account the financial aspect, and read all good advice on how to see if the scene will fit within the brightness range of a colour slide, and eventually sacrifice part of the image but only after a careful analysis.

But in some cases, the image is just straightforward and easy. For example, since this image was not made on a single 4x5" sheet of slide but on a poor men's 6x12 on rollfilm (Fuji Provia 100F),
http://www.cijoint.fr/cj200901/cijY81lkoi.jpg
I simply used the incident light metering technique with my lunasix, and the good faithful instrument suggested that I should expose according to the sunny-16 rule.
What I did, with the additional correction of -1.5 stop due to the use of a centre filter.
Reasonable photographers would probably think that I had no chance to get a satisfying result, and surprisingly the image was seen and considered as acceptable by experts who only swear by the spot-meter... (I did not disclose to them what had been my metering method)

So my advice would be : to start with, choose an easy subject for which the sunny-16 rule gives the same exposure as your usual hand-held meter or 35 mm camera, and go for it...
Too bad ! This does not answer at all the initial question, if the subject is not an easy one...

Well more seriously, if taking pictures of monuments, when the stone is bright you are art risk of being overexposed in the walls, so you should think about it.
For example in France many monuments are built with the so-called Burgondy stone, quite bright with respect other stones, and you should really thing about keeping details in the stone, hence compensate and deliberately under-expose the scene. This kind of s'tone cannot be the mid-tone, but it should not be over-exposed... the spotmeter analysis, then gives the proper answer.

Another with colour slides rule that I learned from the same experts is that you are allowed, say, 5-%10% of surface of the image to be grossly overexposed /sacrificed if it is not near the principal subject and it it does not attract the eye too much.
The typical example in abbeys is a picture of the inside of the cloister, you are allowed to sacrifice the small parts of the image of what is outside... or use a DSLR and the so-called HDR method if you realy want to get everything !
Or go for color negs or for the tri-color process on B&W film with a very broad dynamic range !

[Mike M]

Just got my first slides back from Spectrum in Plymouth, out of the four I had processed three of them were pretty well exposed. No prizes for composition but after all the warnings I've had about using slide film I'm just happy I didnt end up with clear/black sheets!
Thanks to everyone who gave their advice in this thread.

Velvia 50 (with a dirty great sunspot!)


Provia 100

[Joanna Carter]

Nice compositions.

Can I just ask if you used an ND grad in this shot and, if so, was it a Cokin? I ask because of the strong Magenta colouration in the clouds; or are you just being "artistic" ?

[Mike M]

I used a .6 hard GND from High Tech with a .3 soft GND which was from SRB, I guess the cheap one from SRB is what has given the magenta cast?
Apart from that both pics are straight scans with a resize, no PS.

[Charles Twist]

Hello Mike and Joanna,
As Joanna can vouch, for whatever reason, with dark clouds, I get a strong magenta cast using Lee filters and Velvia 100 film - no problems with Velvia 50 (old series). Anybody else seen this?
Best regards,
Charles

[joolsb]

Hello Mike and Joanna,
As Joanna can vouch, for whatever reason, with dark clouds, I get a strong magenta cast using Lee filters and Velvia 100 film - no problems with Velvia 50 (old series). Anybody else seen this?
Best regards,
Charles

I've noticed that too, which is one of the reasons I no longer use that film. I suspect it has a lot to do with the overall red/magenta bias of that film. JC calls it 'Redvia' because of this.

[Mike M]

The picture above was taken with Velvia 50 and I also took exactly the same shot with Provia with the same magenta cast?!