High End Inkjet Printing Paper Question

[scovell001]

Hi , & a very merry Christmas to you all.

I wanted to pose a thought on inkjet printing papers.

I make prints on an Epson 11880, and over the last few months have been trialing all kinds different types of inkjet paper in an effort to find as big a gamut as I can on an equally archival/near arhcival paper. Now the general concensus seems to be that ' Hahnemuhle Photo Rag' is the paper of choice, or alternatively one of the variants (ie satin, pearl etc). The reasoning behind this is the papers archival quality and 'in the hand feel'.

Now, I'm with the P- Rag crowd, & I also shoot Velvia in all its super saturated contrasty (like the rest of us). What I've found so far is that the Hanemuhle (and quite a lot of the other big name papers) don't have the colour gamut of a pretty bog standard paper such as a 'microporous satin 260gsm' which I've found from my contract paper supplier. On the attached 'colourthink' screen grab PR is solid & the MPS 260 is in wireframe.

So what does this mean in real terms. Well, P- Rag (& as another example Innova Ultra Smooth Gloss 285gsm) aren't able to reproduce the shadow detail & tonal dynamics of the cheapo MPS 260gsm in the final print. At this point someone will chime in about 'RESOLVING' shadow detail on the paper which is not what I mean. What I'm attempting to get at with this post is that the P- rag (& the others I've tested) aren't able to 'Present' the shadow detail & colour dynamics in the same way that the MPS260 (or many other satin/pearl finish photo papers) can.

So, there appears to be a choice. If you want your prints to feel great in the hand, have a quality (art paper) look to them then P- rag is the way to go. If you want images that have a massive dynamic range and a huge colour pop (just like the original tran) then these satin/pearl finish papers are hard to beat, especially when the price of the paper is considered (£90 vs £236 for a 44" roll). The only downside is they look cheap, feel cheap & can produce some nasty bronzing/reflections.

I was just interested, from those who are selling prints, are customers paying for and prefering P-Rag. Or, are they perfectly happy with satin/pearl photo papers. Or, do they even give a damn?

[DJ]

In my experience of profiling papers, I've yet to find any matte paper with a decent gamut...

I know Photo Rag is very popular and I have profiled some for various printers, it's nice in the hand yes, but like pretty much every matte paper I've tried it has muddy blacks, and a pretty limited gamut. If it's a low saturation image or B&W towards the light end with no dark areas, I think it works really well, but not for anything dark. I don't think it's bad, not for that style of paper, but personally I don't like it that much, I think it's overpriced and over-rated.

The Photo Rag Baryta is an interesting thing... highly regarded but I think it's still slightly susceptible to bronzing. I haven't profiled any as it's so expensive, nearly twice as much as alternatives of a similar ilk.

I've tried Hahnemulhe Fine Art Pearl, it's ok, but bronzes a bit and has those irritating tramlines on it.

Crane Museo Silver Rag - delicate surface you can't touch with your fingers, and a bit yellowy.

Innova F-Type Gloss - difficult to profile but quite nice, lots of dust though ( may have fixed this, I had an early batch ).

One of the widest gamuts I've found was an Epson paper, I did a 4096 patch target profile for Premium Lustre and it came out really well, nice wide gamut, but, although it's got a nice surface texture, it's cheap and plasticcy and can bronze a bit, I wouldn't want to sell it as a fine art print. Another surprising one is Epson Watercolor Paper-Radiant White also has a surprisingly wide gamut for a matte paper and a nice feel to it, underrated.

Personally I'm doing gloss type papers exclusively now, I have a 7880 and I'm not doing the ink-swapping malarky. I prefer the 'Harman FB Al" baryta paper, it's really nice stuff and seems the least susceptible to bronzing of any gloss paper I've seen, seen some stunning prints made with it with my profiles, gamut seems good too. Edit: Just found this article on the Harman FB Al, very interesting read - http://www.luminous-landscape.com/revie ... ace2.shtml

The other Baryta paper is the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, which I haven't tried, but I hear is pretty good.

I understand that the newish Epson Exhibition Fibre, whilst being obscenely expensive, is actually very good, though I have no personal experience of it. Superb black levels and wide gamut, very bright and nice feel to it, uses Photo black too. Only available in sheet form due to it's thickness, I can't see it on Epson UK's site ( but that doesn't surprise me, Epson UK are pretty useless ). There are some well made downloadable profiles here so you can compare : http://www.pixelgenius.com/epson/ and a review of sorts here : http://www.luminous-landscape.com/revie ... iber.shtml. Addendum: Apparently in the UK it's called "Epson Traditional Photo Paper"... ( Review : http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/revi ... P_EFP.html )

Epson are releasing some new papers in this line, the "Hot Press Bright/Natural" and "Cold Press Bright/Natural" which sound very interesting ( see http://www.luminous-landscape.com/revie ... s-09.shtml ). Again, looks like it's only available in sheet form, and hideously expensive at that.

[timparkin]

When I was at the Light and Land discovery day, the Epson people had the full range of papers out and I particularly liked the Hot Press bright. However, one of the papers that looked really nice was a book proofing paper (can't remember the exact name). It had that high quality book smooth but not too shiny feel. I'm wondering if it prints as good as it looks/feels (it probably bronzes horribly just like book paper - then again I love the look and feel of a good quality book).

Tim

[timparkin]

I wonder what people think of these papers once they are behind glass? Does the Dmax of matt paper change once mounted?

Tim

[DJ]

I wonder what people think of these papers once they are behind glass? Does the Dmax of matt paper change once mounted?

I don't think it would change, it's more your ability to perceive it, and the type of glass. "Anti-reflection" glass which is essentially lightly frosted glass, doesn't help matters I've found, it just reduces the contrast and sharpness on the print, I've a couple of prints using this glass and I probably won't use it again.

Another common mistake is to use glass with UV filtering in conjunction with a print made on a paper with OBAs ( Optical Brightening Agents ), which are activated by... UV. Instantly the print will lose it's "punch" and the range of the image will be compromised.

[DJ]

I understand that the newish Epson Exhibition Fibre, whilst being obscenely expensive, is actually very good, though I have no personal experience of it. Superb black levels and wide gamut, very bright and nice feel to it, uses Photo black too. Only available in sheet form due to it's thickness, I can't see it on Epson UK's site ( but that doesn't surprise me, Epson UK are pretty useless ). There are some well made downloadable profiles here so you can compare : http://www.pixelgenius.com/epson/ and a review of sorts here : http://www.luminous-landscape.com/revie ... iber.shtml. Addendum: Apparently in the UK it's called "Epson Traditional Photo Paper"... ( Review : http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/revi ... P_EFP.html )

Apparently, it is now available in roll form, 17", 24" and 44" and on sale at the moment.

[Julian Boulter]

I understand that the newish Epson Exhibition Fibre, whilst being obscenely expensive, is actually very good, though I have no personal experience of it. Superb black levels and wide gamut, very bright and nice feel to it, uses Photo black too. Only available in sheet form due to it's thickness, I can't see it on Epson UK's site ( but that doesn't surprise me, Epson UK are pretty useless ). There are some well made downloadable profiles here so you can compare : http://www.pixelgenius.com/epson/ and a review of sorts here : http://www.luminous-landscape.com/revie ... iber.shtml. Addendum: Apparently in the UK it's called "Epson Traditional Photo Paper"... ( Review : http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/revi ... P_EFP.html )

Love, it, I standardised on it 2 years ago once I tried the canned profiles for my 3800 and saw how close they were to the soft proof, really high quality expensive feel, sharp and saturated (uses photo black). Not quite as sharp mind as standard glossy paper but the look and feel of the paper oozes a quality product.

I even bought a box of 24" so that I could cut to size to print 17" x 38" panos on the 3800, they look incredible.

I purchased a Joe Cornish print recently and noticed it was the same paper!

Julian

[scovell001]

Julian,

I've got a custom profile for the EFA (or TFA in the UK) paper & the Epson 3800. Managed to squeeze the gamut to nearly that of the Ultrachrome K3 +vivid magenta inkset. Give me a pm if you want to give it a try.

There's a chap called Ross Brown (hello Ross, if you're reading), also a 5x4 photographer. He sent me some samples of images I'd scanned for him printed on this paper. Its rather nice, OBA free with a very slight cream/off white look. I would certainly put it in a top 10 inkjet paper choice.

This sounds extremely critical (and paper choice is extremely personal), I felt that the ink seemed to sit ON the paper rather than in it. Also, there's a finish to the paper coating that reminds me of the bottom of those polystyrene burger cartons. In this respect I find myself leaning towards the Innova ultra smooth gloss 285 or Ilford GFS.

FYI Spectrum Photographic in Brighton have launched an online print to order service with competitive pricing. They're using a Chromira & Epson 9800. The kit's been profiled by Neil (Barstow) so the prints are better than half reasonable. Paper choices are the usual Fuji pearl/matt on the Chromira (with Kodak metallic as an option) and Hahnemuhle & Innova on the Epson.

Paper & printing eh!

[Julian Boulter]

Thanks Ian PM sent

By the way I have used these guys before for online digital C types and very large inkjets on Hahnemuhle Pearl (which is very similar to the Epson Traditional Photo Paper, just even more expensive!):

http://www.theprintspace.co.uk/

I'm also interested in what Tim mentioned about the book proofing paper, its something I've long wondered about, whether its possible to make an inkjet print on paper thats close to the wonderful look of a Litho printed coffee table book.

Does anyone have more info on this paper?

Cheers

Julian

[DJ]

FYI Spectrum Photographic in Brighton have launched an online print to order service with competitive pricing. They're using a Chromira & Epson 9800. The kit's been profiled by Neil (Barstow) so the prints are better than half reasonable. Paper choices are the usual Fuji pearl/matt on the Chromira (with Kodak metallic as an option) and Hahnemuhle & Innova on the Epson.

I didn't know they'd got a Chromira, they were using a Noritsu last time I looked. They also appear to run a Durst Theta 76 and it looks from their online ordering system that whichever machine is used is dependent upon the size of print you order, i.e. you can't choose. The Durst can do up to 30" wide and the Chromira 50", so to get the Chromira you'd have to order something that the Durst couldn't print... Interestingly, Spectrum accept files up to 400ppi, not quite sure how that would work as the Durst will only do 254, and the Chromira does 300.

Their online services looks pretty reasonable, a little more than Peak for one-offs and properly colour-managed into the bargain ( Peak don't bother, they use the standard machine profiles which are ok, but not as good as custom ones ). However, they don't seem to have the discounts for multiple prints that others offer ( which can be significant ). Unfortunately, they still don't do the papers I like, only the standard Fuji Crystal Archive Matte/Gloss/Lustre and Kodak Endura Metallic. I've yet to find someone in the UK who does the Fuji Supergloss and Supergloss Pearl, the latter of which is really nice.

[DJ]

I've yet to find someone in the UK who does the Fuji Supergloss and Supergloss Pearl, the latter of which is really nice.

I stand corrected, ThePrintSpace has started doing FujiFlex ( aka SuperGloss ). Supergloss Pearl still MIA. Sadly it looks as though their digital C-Type printer is only 30" wide?

[Brian E]

Hi All Merry Christmas

I've just recently switched to Fotospeed papers - They offer FREE Custom profiles - Had 2 done so far - both were spot-on (Nice selection of papers both in "Pigment Friendly" and " Fine Art" ) Definitely worth a try.

Brian